[travior]

What pisses me off is the way that, lately, the US is pressuring Israel to make peace with these fuckers. There will be no peace. You cannot make peace with a people that has the sole mandate of wiping you off the face of the earth.

[Zipperfish]

Chigeeng wrote:

There is no clear good side to all this. We just go back and forth over who did what first. But the unquestioning championing of the Isreali government will not see that justice is ever realized.

Your nick shoudl be "chuh-ching!" for that post. Rocket attacks by Hamas and others have done nothing to improve the situation for Palestinains. Collective punsihment by Israelis has done nothing to help the security of Israel.

Someone here mentioned the propganda war. As far as I can tell, that seems to be the main war that's happening. Hamas firing rockets into Israeli schoolyrads and Israel bombing Gaza markets is a side show. They both seem to be trying to win world sympahty, whether it'a the Palestinainas playing the victim card, or Israel claiming that they don't want to hurt civilians. They are both so full of shit, I'
m surprised anyone pays any attention ot them anymore. If the rest of teh world just didn't play their little game, maybe they would be forced to address a political solution, which is the only solution to this ongoin feud.

[Chigeeng]

After ensuring that conditions imposed by the blocking all normal supply of food, fuel and medicines and assasinations would precipitate a reaction.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish wrote:

Someone here mentioned the propganda war. As far as I can tell, that seems to be the main war that's happening. Hamas firing rockets into Israeli schoolyrads and Israel bombing Gaza markets is a side show. They both seem to be trying to win world sympahty, whether it'a the Palestinainas playing the victim card, or Israel claiming that they don't want to hurt civilians. They are both so full of shit, I'm surprised anyone pays any attention ot them anymore. If the rest of teh world just didn't play their little game, maybe they would be forced to address a political solution, which is the only solution to this ongoin feud.

Ummm...Israel is trying to prevent civilian casualties, and so far I do not believe Israel is full of shit. So how, do you think, is Israel not trying to minimize civilian deaths in this conflict? Please enlighten us.

Also, you should proofread, it makes it quite difficult to read half the things you say with the typos appearing left and right.

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai wrote:

Ummm...Israel is trying to prevent civilian casualties, and so far I do not believe Israel is full of shit. So how, do you think, is Israel not trying to minimize civilian deaths in this conflict? Please enlighten us.

Also, you should proofread, it makes it quite difficult to read half the things you say with the typos appearing left and right.

Well, if they are trying to prevent civilian casualties, the most generous thing you could say is that they have failed miserably. For enlightnement, let's look at the 2006 Lebanon War. In that war, Israle had the stated to intent to avoid civilian casualties, but killed thousands of Lebanese civilians. According to UNICEF 30% were children under the age of 13. Who knows how many of the others were Hezbollah (according to Labanon it was 250; according to Isarel 600), but it's a fair bet that kids who aren't old enough to know what country they live probably aren't Hezbollah. Ironically, the stated intent of Hezbollah is apparently to kill civilians, but they killed predominately Israeli forces.

Now you, as a pawn in the mighty propaganda war that you mentioned, you can engage in your petty bickering all you like. Folks like you tend to have a memory of about four months, so everything becomes about the last battle, the latest perceived wrongdoing. You have no sense of context at all. I'm not just talking about you rabid right-wingers, but also the left-wingers who constantly whine about how hard done by the Palestinians are. In the 60s, it was the left that supported Israel, and the right that supported the Arabs. Go figger.

A realist's point of view is that the straegies of teh Palestinaians (polaying the victim card, terrorism) have not helped them acheive the ends they seek. Collective punsihment by Israel has not helped it achieve the secuirty it seeks. Sooner or later, like in Northern Ireland, they are going to have to reach an agreement through a political process.

And if you don't like my posts, don't read them.

[EyeBrock]

I think the analogy with Northern Ireland is a good one. The only problem is that in NI both sides were at the same level of social development. With the Palestinians and Israelis they are on vastly different development planes.

Israel is really a first world country surrounded by third world neighbours.

Democratic accountability in the Arab world is absent and political direction still comes from the mosque.

In Israel the government is accountable to Israeli citizens.

To end this conflict there will have to be accommodation on both sides, the problem that I see is that the Arab world is still socially backward and can't get past petty hatreds and inter-tribal rivalry. It will be decades before there is peace in the Middle East.

[Freakinoldguy]

EyeBrock wrote:

To end this conflict there will have to be accommodation on both sides, the problem that I see is that the Arab world is still socially backward and can't get past petty hatreds and inter-tribal rivalry. It will be decades before there is peace in the Middle East.

God, I love an optimist.

[Scape]

Hamas is a demo for Iran. If Israel can exterminate Hamas and use the new bunker busters it bought from the US for good effect Iran could be next.

[ShepherdsDog]

They say that 1/3 of the tunnels were destroyed. One Daisy Cutter chould have taken care of them all.

[Scape]

Israel Invasion of Gaza Discussed--With Cute Puppy

[CanadianJeff]

Honestly why can't they learn...why the heck can't they learn.

[martin14]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

They say that 1/3 of the tunnels were destroyed. One Daisy Cutter chould have taken care of them all.

and half the Egyptian town of Rafah
the wall isn't strong enough I guess.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish wrote:

Well, if they are trying to prevent civilian casualties, the most generous thing you could say is that they have failed miserably. For enlightnement, let's look at the 2006 Lebanon War. In that war, Israle had the stated to intent to avoid civilian casualties, but killed thousands of Lebanese civilians. According to UNICEF 30% were children under the age of 13. Who knows how many of the others were Hezbollah (according to Labanon it was 250; according to Isarel 600), but it's a fair bet that kids who aren't old enough to know what country they live probably aren't Hezbollah. Ironically, the stated intent of Hezbollah is apparently to kill civilians, but they killed predominately Israeli forces.

Of course you ignore tactics. These terrorist organizations operate from densely populated urban centres, and since they use these densely populated areas as their bases of operation, what do you expect? Look at Hamas operations right now. They are firing rockets from residential communities, hiding rocket stores in mosques, transferring rockets in the back alleys of neighborhoods.

Israel is a modern military army, however, unlike the United States, it does not have the manpower to move block by block to clear out these areas. So, as such, and justly so, they use air supremacy to prevent their own military casualties.

Now, you speak of Hezbollah's intentions, but you ignore the fact about the tactics they committed. Their tactics allows for the massive civilian casualties you see in these conflicts, from operating in urban areas, to preventing ambulances to help victims (See Hamas just recently). Of course you purely blame Israel for these casualties, and yet you ignore the broader implications.

Quote:

Now you, as a pawn in the mighty propaganda war that you mentioned, you can engage in your petty bickering all you like. Folks like you tend to have a memory of about four months, so everything becomes about the last battle, the latest perceived wrongdoing.

Mmm...insults in the morning.

Quote:

A realist's point of view is that the straegies of teh Palestinaians (polaying the victim card, terrorism) have not helped them acheive the ends they seek. Collective punsihment by Israel has not helped it achieve the secuirty it seeks. Sooner or later, like in Northern Ireland, they are going to have to reach an agreement through a political process.

And political agreements have worked? Saying any political agreement will work is flawed and now you are the one who seems to be having the very short memory. Look at Oslo. Even the Wiki article states that Hamas cannot support any agreement since their charters state they will not recognize Israel's right to exist.

But maybe you have a magical solution nobody has thought up before. How will you get a political agreement between Israel and the numerous Palestinian factions, including Hamas?

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai wrote:

Of course you ignore tactics. These terrorist organizations operate from densely populated urban centres, and since they use these densely populated areas as their bases of operation, what do you expect? Look at Hamas operations right now. They are firing rockets from residential communities, hiding rocket stores in mosques, transferring rockets in the back alleys of neighborhoods.

Israel is a modern military army, however, unlike the United States, it does not have the manpower to move block by block to clear out these areas. So, as such, and justly so, they use air supremacy to prevent their own military casualties.

Now, you speak of Hezbollah's intentions, but you ignore the fact about the tactics they committed. Their tactics allows for the massive civilian casualties you see in these conflicts, from operating in urban areas, to preventing ambulances to help victims (See Hamas just recently). Of course you purely blame Israel for these casualties, and yet you ignore the broader implications.

I'm stating results. At what point do results matter, regardless of the stated claims by the various parties involved? The problem with ideologues is that they are all about intent and morals, but results never seem to matter to them. As a realist, I don't pay much attention to the claims of either side, since they are at war, and the first casualty in war is the truth. As you stated, outside of the conflict area, this is primarily a propaganda war. I don't "blame" the Israelis for the casualties, I'm just stating the simple fact that they killed x number of civilians.

Terrorism is a modern response for the weak side in asymmetrical warfare--terrorism (attacking civilian targets) and guerilla warfare (harassing the enemy). You can moralize about it all you want; knock yourself out. But that is how weak forces fight strong forces in our modern era of advanced weaponry and weapons of mass destruction.

Quote:

And political agreements have worked? Saying any political agreement will work is flawed and now you are the one who seems to be having the very short memory. Look at Oslo. Even the Wiki article states that Hamas cannot support any agreement since their charters state they will not recognize Israel's right to exist.

But maybe you have a magical solution nobody has thought up before. How will you get a political agreement between Israel and the numerous Palestinian factions, including Hamas?

Political solutions put forward have not worked to date. Neither have any military solutions. What are Israel's military options? They already occupy the land. There is no question of military supremacy over the Palestinians. It is my opinion that various military and control strategies by Israel will hold the Palestinians resistance to a fairly low level, but periodic outbreaks of violence should be expected to continue. It's a cyclical thing.

There have been successful political solutions involving Isarel and its Arab neighbours, such as with Egypt in 1974 and Jordan in 1994.

[BartSimpson]

Scape wrote:

Warning: Graphic

What kind of a sick bastard runs to a disaster scene and videos people who need help?