[Gunnair]

JustKate wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

JustKate wrote:

Israel has every right to defend their country. It's horrible how Hamas is using civilians as shields. That's how they fight, no uniforms, fricken cowards is what they are. They are killing their own by not fighting like an army, why is no one pointing that fact out????

The point might be that Israel is killing the sheilds...

Who's fault is that? The cowards hiding behind the human shields is it not? They fire rockets into Israel and then hide. They are at fault for it ALL. Israel gave them the land and look what's happening. It's always Israel's fault isn't it though.

You didn't answer my question. How should they fight?

[Biblesmasher]

StuntmanMike wrote:

Perhaps if they'd voted for someone other than Hamas, they wouldn't have reaped that which they sowed.

Oh Im sorry...Hamas got 100% of the vote did they? And apparently the palestinian territories are the only place on earth where EVERY adult ends up voting unlike the 65% turnout most other places get. Ah and also apparently children can vote in Gaza now. Yes in that case you are correct, burn in hell(gaza) civilians!

You're like Dahmer, without the empathy.

[Biblesmasher]

BartSimpson wrote:

Wada wrote:

Sick is when you treat others as you wish not to be treated.

So why are the Palestinians shooting rockets into Israel?

"The Palestinians"...

Those little girls bleeding in the video...they shot rockets into Israel did they?

[Biblesmasher]

JustKate wrote:

Israel has every right to defend their country. It's horrible how Hamas is using civilians as shields. That's how they fight, no uniforms, fricken cowards is what they are. They are killing their own by not fighting like an army, why is no one pointing that fact out????

For the same reason no one points out how outrageous it is that a gunman used an innocent bystander as a human shield last year in Toronto. Some things are pretty obvious. Do you need me to tell you Hitler was bad as well? Or would you rather I respect your intelligence.

[Scape]

Hamas will not be destroyed by this. At best they will be knocked down a peg for a short period but white phosphorus being used without discrimination on population centers (a poison gas that will burn flesh) is as bad as the rocket attacks by Hamas. Hamas has not been officially recognized by Israel and the international community but they have been validated with this action. If they survive this baptism of fire the dead will become martyrs and the living will become legends. Israel also crossed the line by their attack on Abu Zakaria al-Jamal in his own house killing him and his family. If Hamas did the same in kind the outrage would be profound for that kind of butchery. All this has done is cemented opposition to the state of Israel. Cutting off international aid to Hamas has only made them more extremist and attacking them directly Stalingrad style will only make them stronger. At this point the only option now is to exterminate the people of the Gaza strip to the last child or have the international community break the two parties apart like Cyprus.

[martin14]

I wonder about that Scape, not so sure.

What's been a little surprising, and maybe hopeful, has been the reaction
from the neighborhood.

Egypt condemns Hamas first.
The other Arab states, nothing but some blah blah.
Hamas called for another intefada, result zero.
Hezollah, nothing yet.
The West Bank is quiet.
The UN, well nothing new there.

Everyone likes to jump up and down about the university and the mosques,
but the reality is those places are being used by Hamas for weapons,
and Hamas is desecrating those places.

It is my hope Hamas gets removed from power in Gaza, and then the Iraelis
need to cut a deal with Fatah fairly quickly.

Eliminating Gaza is not PC, and they have nowhere to go anyway,
but it would solve the problem; not realistic though.

Tunnels and rockets need to be dealt with, so leaving Hamas in power doesnt work
either. If not Fatah, then (the UN,.. ugh), with authority to arrest militants,
close the tunnels on BOTH sides , and monitor everything going into Gaza.
Gaza becomes a DMZ, and then maybe there is a chance.

If Hamas stays, there will be no solution to this.

[Scape]

And yet if Fatah is once again appointed there will be no reason for them to reform their corrupt ways. They know they can do what they want as the Arab nations don't want a militant party in Gaza. There won't be rockets just instabilty that will bring back Hamas.

[ShepherdsDog]

Quote:

Hamas has not been officially recognized by Israel and the international community

Sure they have. They are recognized as a terrorist organization. Gaza is problematic in that no one seems to want it. Egypt wouldn't take it back, Israel gave it up, and it doesn't seem to want to follow what is happening in the West Bank.

[DerbyX]

Scape wrote:

And yet if Fatah is once again appointed there will be no reason for them to reform their corrupt ways. They know they can do what they want as the Arab nations don't want a militant party in Gaza. There won't be rockets just instabilty that will bring back Hamas.

This is why I believe this is a good place for a multinational peacekeeping force in the gaza strip working with the permission of the palestinian people. An armed force to provide security inside the strip and at checkpoints minimizing all contact between the Israelis and Palestinians. Fatah is corrupt but anymore so then any single other arab Govt? Hell you yourself has said that karzais govt is a corrupt narco state which we work with. Bush has taken the US to new highs in corruption and new lows in despicable foreign policy conduct. Depending on who yu speak to Canada is always being ruled by one corrupt dictator to the next.

Hamas got elected because it spent loads of money building infrastructure and services but they also get support by the people who rightfully feel the Israelis occupy their land and they won't rest till they get it back.

The ideas is to work towards a solution and as your video with the cute puppy illustrasted the only real solution is to return to the original UN plan of a seperate Palestine and Israel with some sort of joint ownership of Jerusalem of both sides.

The key for this to work is obviously convincing the Palestinians that we are genuinely working towards that goal and the armed security is as much for their protection as it is to prevent rocket attacks on Israel. The Israelis get out of all occupied land and agree to a Palestinian state and some sort of joint/UN/whoever control of Jerusalem amd/or any such areas.

Now before anybody posts about it being hard or not being able to convince all the people involved I sa bollocks. It did not stop us from invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq and nobody supporting those missions favour us quitting at the first sign of difficulty.

The only real reason I can see this not getting alot of support is because we aren't allowing soldiers the free-fire options they want.

Perhaps we should specially train a specific peace-keeping force knowing full well the situation and ROEs.

Seems to me that the defintion of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a diffirent result which is exactly what keeps happening over there.

[ridenrain]

Don't we already have Hamas firing mortars in or near UN compounds though?
Why would Hamas respect the UN now?

[DerbyX]

ridenrain wrote:

Don't we already have Hamas firing mortars in or near UN compounds though?
Why would Hamas respect the UN now?

The respect we need is from the Palestinian people and we'll get that when they understand we really are working to achieve what they want.

Why is it that when Hamas fires a few mortars at a UN compound it scares us yet the US invaded Iraq with far greater threat and violence thrown at them and are still there as are we in Afghanistan?

[ridenrain]

My point was that the UN has been unable to maintain or even monitor the conflict in any fair and unbiased way so I can't see how they can do it now.
Hamas is already suckering the IDF to return fire into UN compounds so putting more UN targets out there with more media will simply make the problem worst.

[DerbyX]

Have we really really tried? Did we do it right? Did we launch a PR campaign well in advance of what we want to do and explain tht we were seeking permission to work with them? No we didn't because western arrogance and hypocracy doesn't often allow for that.

We certainly aren't doing the right thing in Afghanistan and the violence in Iraq only really died down when the US enagaged all sides and pretty much bribed the militia commanders to stand down.

We will never ever achieve any peace in the region unless we address both sides equally and fairly.

[ridenrain]

DerbyX wrote:

We will never ever achieve any peace in the region unless we address both sides equally and fairly.

Does that mean that the state of Israel has the right to exist?

The Palestinian cause has active as long as the UN has been around.. you might even argue that one caused the other but that's another topic.
No amount of PR or fireside sing-along is going to make the Palestinian people happy and Hamas is only using them anyways.
Hamas, Hezbollah and these terrorist factions need to recognize that Israel has the right to exist.

[DerbyX]

ridenrain wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

We will never ever achieve any peace in the region unless we address both sides equally and fairly.

Does that mean that the state of Israel has the right to exist?

The Palestinian cause has active as long as the UN has been around.. you might even argue that one caused the other but that's another topic.
No amount of PR or fireside sing-along is going to make the Palestinian people happy and Hamas is only using them anyways.
Hamas, Hezbollah and these terrorist factions need to recognize that Israel has the right to exist.

The point I'm making is that we need the Palestinian support and right now they support Hamas for a reason. We give them a reason to support us for the same reasons. While there will always be people who think Israel should not exist I think that when Palestine the seperate country becomes a reality and they win a victory by getting land back that Israel is currently settling that will mollify alot of people.

Furthermore when they finally get a country and with that country the infrastructure that goes along withit they might have someting they don't want to lose. Right now they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by violence because each round of violence brings fresh support for their cause and money. Makethe conditions so that they will have moe to lose through continued violence then to gain and give them a country and a way of lfe they won't want to jepordize over petty squabbling.