[DerbyX]

BartSimpson wrote:

Again, you're citing a valid casus belli for Israel here. The Palestinians are not going to win this militarily. And they're not going to win this politicially so long as they insist on attacking Israel.

If the idiots would cut it out with the jihad and follow the lead of Gandhi and MLK, Jr. they'd win this a lot easier and with a lot less bloodshed.

Valid in your eyes. Continued Israeli occupation of their land, land taken from them is a valid casus belli in their eyes and would be in yours if it were non-muslims fighting for their land taken from them.

If Israeli would withdraw from the disputed areas and demolish its settlements that too would be a step forward.

Again, you are more interested in them being punished rather then a fair solution that sees them get their land back, statehood, and brings peace.

[Biblesmasher]

BartSimpson wrote:

Biblesmasher wrote:

Palestinians are individuals. The same ones getting killed are not necesarily the same ones "that started this round of mayhem". A real obvious example of that are Little children who dont have a say in anything. This should seem obvious since even dogs can discern between people but Ill keep repeating since it seems you have trouble grasping that concept.

Palestine then has a responsibility to stop their people from attacks on Israel. But to the contrary they have not. Thus it becomes a war between nations and the Palestinians are dreadfully outclassed for this kind of thing.

Politics aside, the Palestinians made the strategic gamble with the rocket attacks and now they're paying the price.

Palestinians are individuals and not a hive of bees. Ill keep saying that as long as you keep pretending they are all borg plugged into the same mind. Tell me what exactly Habib and his wife and kids are supposed to do to stop Mad men with guns from doing madmen things on the other side of town? Cant wait for the answer.

There are murders and kidnappings happening in Canada as we speak! Why arent you stopping them Bart Simpson??

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX wrote:

Valid in your eyes. Continued Israeli occupation of their land, land taken from them is a valid casus belli in their eyes and would be in yours if it were non-muslims fighting for their land taken from them.

If Israeli would withdraw from the disputed areas and demolish its settlements that too would be a step forward.

Again, you are more interested in them being punished rather then a fair solution that sees them get their land back, statehood, and brings peace.

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians. True. But when the UN mandated a solution back in 1948 the Palestinians had the choice to stay where they were (as many Arabs did) and live peaceably in the new nation of Israel. Instead, they chose to leave and become refugees and antagonists to a nation that was created by a UN mandate.

What they need to accomplish now is not the reconquest of any lost lands or reclaiming land they voluntarily abandoned in 1948, they first need to be able to live in peace on the land that they have. But they keep choosing war and they keep choosing war with a nation that excels at war.

Which, again, makes me have little sympathy for them. If they want to pick a war with Israel over and over and get their butts kicked over and over then fine by me.

If they want to gain the sympathy of people like myself they have to stop the attacks and then when they are established as reasonable people the talks can begin.

And they cannot win against Israel until they win over people like me who vote for Congressmembers who support Israel.

[BartSimpson]

Biblesmasher wrote:

Palestinians are individuals and not a hive of bees.

Palestinians, as individuals, democratically elected a government that is pursuing a war against Israel. Israel has a duty to protect her individual citizens from individual Palestinians and their government. And Israel is doing so as we speak.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Ill keep saying that as long as you keep pretending they are all borg plugged into the same mind. Tell me what exactly Habib and his wife and kids are supposed to do to stop Mad men with guns from doing madmen things on the other side of town? Cant wait for the answer.

I'm expecting Habib won't vote for Hamas in the next elections, that's what he can do.

Biblesmasher wrote:

There are murders and kidnappings happening in Canada as we speak! Why arent you stopping them Bart Simpson??

Because I'm not a Canadian and it's not my business unless I'm invited to help at which point I will. For a time last year I was contemplating joining the Victoria BC police and moving up there but situations for me ruled that out.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

Valid in your eyes. Continued Israeli occupation of their land, land taken from them is a valid casus belli in their eyes and would be in yours if it were non-muslims fighting for their land taken from them.

If Israeli would withdraw from the disputed areas and demolish its settlements that too would be a step forward.

Again, you are more interested in them being punished rather then a fair solution that sees them get their land back, statehood, and brings peace.

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians. True. But when the UN mandated a solution back in 1948 the Palestinians had the choice to stay where they were (as many Arabs did) and live peaceably in the new nation of Israel. Instead, they chose to leave and become refugees and antagonists to a nation that was created by a UN mandate.

What they need to accomplish now is not the reconquest of any lost lands or reclaiming land they voluntarily abandoned in 1948, they first need to be able to live in peace on the land that they have. But they keep choosing war and they keep choosing war with a nation that excels at war.

Which, again, makes me have little sympathy for them. If they want to pick a war with Israel over and over and get their butts kicked over and over then fine by me.

If they want to gain the sympathy of people like myself they have to stop the attacks and then when they are established as reasonable people the talks can begin.

And they cannot win against Israel until they win over people like me who vote for Congressmembers who support Israel.

No. We reestablish the 2 states of Palestine and Israel as previously set forth and Jerusalem is administered jointly or by the UN or other such body.

Sooner or later the Arabs will realize that any cooperation between them is grave trouble when we can't even control them when occupying their land with entire coalitions of countries.

Quite frankly we are lucky they haven't.

Give the Palestinians their land back and help them build a society worth preserving or else face eternal warfare.

[Biblesmasher]

BartSimpson wrote:

Biblesmasher wrote:

Palestinians are individuals and not a hive of bees.

Palestinians, as individuals, democratically elected a government that is pursuing a war against Israel. Israel has a duty to protect her individual citizens from individual Palestinians and their government. And Israel is doing so as we speak.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Ill keep saying that as long as you keep pretending they are all borg plugged into the same mind. Tell me what exactly Habib and his wife and kids are supposed to do to stop Mad men with guns from doing madmen things on the other side of town? Cant wait for the answer.

I'm expecting Habib won't vote for Hamas in the next elections, that's what he can do.

Biblesmasher wrote:

There are murders and kidnappings happening in Canada as we speak! Why arent you stopping them Bart Simpson??

Because I'm not a Canadian and it's not my business unless I'm invited to help at which point I will. For a time last year I was contemplating joining the Victoria BC police and moving up there but situations for me ruled that out.

Awesome. When people start to lose the ethical argument they get cute and say things like "Im not a Canadian". Thats fine, substitute America in there then.

And what if Habib didnt vote for Hamas in the first place then? And his kids certainly cant vote...go.

Seems to me so far your best argument for a universal set of values has been if "Ive got big guns I call the shots". I wonder if thats written anywhere in the American constitution.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX wrote:

No. We reestablish the 2 states of Palestine and Israel as previously set forth and Jerusalem is administered jointly or by the UN or other such body.

Sooner or later the Arabs will realize that any cooperation between them is grave trouble when we can't even control them when occupying their land with entire coalitions of countries.

Quite frankly we are lucky they haven't.

Give the Palestinians their land back and help them build a society worth preserving or else face eternal warfare.

I wonder. Had the Arabs won over Israel in 1967 and it was the Jews who were confined to Gaza would you be so adamant in restoring the original mandate?

As to the original mandate and etc. Israel gained territory in two successive wars waged against them and they've given back the Sinai to Egypt who made peace with them. I imagine some day they might make peace with Syria and let Syria have the Golan Heights back. And maybe if the Palestinians make peace they might get their part of Jerusalem back.

As with the example of Egypt, those who make peace with the Israelis get their land back.

The Palestinians need to make peace if they want their land back.

[DerbyX]

Yes I would have just as if it was your land taken away by the Israelis you would be the first to take up arms.

You keep talking about how Israel has casa belli for war yet never admit that half the world has equal or ample justification for striking the US. US support of the contras and what hey did, US support of the muhahideen and what they did, US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan gives them the right to attack you.

By your logic 9/11 wasn't a terrorist attack but a righteous attack at a legitamite target against a nation that has attacked them over and over.

If Israel wants peace then they will have to agree to withdraw from Palestinian land and recognize their right to exist as a state.

[BartSimpson]

Biblesmasher wrote:

Awesome. When people start to lose the ethical argument they get cute and say things like "Im not a Canadian".

You asked why I don't get involved in law enforcement in Canada and I answered you. The answer was not meant to be 'cute' it was simply an answer.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Thats fine, substitute America in there then.

Okay, then I am a reserve deputy sheriff and I'm also a retired (reserve inactive) Marine. I've done my part and I'm still doing it.

Biblesmasher wrote:

And what if Habib didnt vote for Hamas in the first place then? And his kids certainly cant vote...go.

Then too bad. Just the same as I didn't vote for Obama but if he starts a war and I get bombed then too bad for me.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Seems to me so far your best argument for a universal set of values has been if "Ive got big guns I call the shots". I wonder if thats written anywhere in the American constitution.

Get past your biases.

I'm all for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians but the ball is in the Palestinians' court and has been for a long time. If they ever swear off fighting they'll gain the impetus they need to get Israel to discuss restoration of their lands or they'll be able to at least get compensated.

Let them be peaceful and my sympathies will change.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson wrote:

Instead, they chose to leave and become refugees and antagonists to a nation that was created by a UN mandate.

Is that supposed to be a good thing?

[Biblesmasher]

BartSimpson wrote:

Biblesmasher wrote:

Awesome. When people start to lose the ethical argument they get cute and say things like "Im not a Canadian".

You asked why I don't get involved in law enforcement in Canada and I answered you. The answer was not meant to be 'cute' it was simply an answer.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Thats fine, substitute America in there then.

Okay, then I am a reserve deputy sheriff and I'm also a retired (reserve inactive) Marine. I've done my part and I'm still doing it.

Biblesmasher wrote:

And what if Habib didnt vote for Hamas in the first place then? And his kids certainly cant vote...go.

Then too bad. Just the same as I didn't vote for Obama but if he starts a war and I get bombed then too bad for me.

Biblesmasher wrote:

Seems to me so far your best argument for a universal set of values has been if "Ive got big guns I call the shots". I wonder if thats written anywhere in the American constitution.

Get past your biases.

I'm all for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians but the ball is in the Palestinians' court and has been for a long time. If they ever swear off fighting they'll gain the impetus they need to get Israel to discuss restoration of their lands or they'll be able to at least get compensated.

Let them be peaceful and my sympathies will change.

Wow. Then too bad for you? 911...too bad for those Americans. If your family was ever so unlucky to be collateral damage...too bad for them too. What utter teenage bravado that safe and sound people that KNOW they will never be touched, type on computers. No ones buying that you believe that. You cant even take harsh talk without complaining.

Lots of 'them' were 'peaceful' before the Israeli attacks and lots will be after. Palestinians are individuals with differing thoughts. Get that through your head. Thats giving you trouble because it doesnt fit with your cyborg shrugging act or your apparent need to split people up into neat little groups.

Of course Hamas should not be launching dangerous rockets into Israel. Only a dumb ass needs that spelled out. The question is wether a five yr old should pay in a horrific way for the crimes of some other person. And that should -if your not an emotionally stunted manchild- also be a pretty easy question to answer.

Its not about sympathy for "a people". Thats movie talk. Its about empathy for a person, an innocent person, a concept that seems disturbingly foreign to you.

[ShepherdsDog]

Zipperfish wrote:

ridenrain wrote:

The Palestinian cause has active as long as the UN has been around...

Try 5000 years. At least.

Where exactly do you get the 5 000 yrs from? There is no link historically, culturally or genetically between the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and the ancient Philistines who disappeared around 1100 BC. Arabs didn't begin moving into this region enmasse until about the 7th century AD. Prior to the Arabs in the area taking on the name Palestinian, they referred to themselves as Jordanians(West Bank) and Egyptians(Gaza). Palestinian was a term that was once used to refer to the Jews of the area(Jerusalem Post was formerly the Palestine Post), and was coopted by the Arabs.

[Scape]

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

Former Amb. Martin Indyk vs. Author Norman Finkelstein: A Debate on Israel’s Assault on Gaza and the US Role in the Conflict

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

Where exactly do you get the 5 000 yrs from? There is no link historically, culturally or genetically between the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and the ancient Philistines who disappeared around 1100 BC. Arabs didn't begin moving into this region enmasse until about the 7th century AD. Prior to the Arabs in the area taking on the name Palestinian, they referred to themselves as Jordanians(West Bank) and Egyptians(Gaza). Palestinian was a term that was once used to refer to the Jews of the area(Jerusalem Post was formerly the Palestine Post), and was coopted by the Arabs.

According to Wiki:

Quote:

The Greek toponym Palaistinê (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[11] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[12] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[13] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians.[14] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Prst, Assyrian Palastu, and the Hebraic Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[15]

[DerbyX]

Our myopic view of the Gaza conflict

Quote:

Their mantra is that Israel has a right to defend itself, has to protect its citizens from Hamas rockets, and had to retaliate for the breaking of the ceasefire by Hamas Dec. 19.

True. But deprived of other truths, this performs the desired magic of absolving Israel of any culpability.

According to this view, hundreds of Palestinian civilians, including women and children and seniors, being bombed and shelled to death in schools – even clearly marked United Nations schools – mosques, refugee camps, streets and homes are acceptable collateral damage.

Few tears need be shed, especially since Hamas is to blame, anyway.

There's amnesia about the brutal 40-year-old occupation.

There's nary a mention that in Israeli military operations in 2008, 420 Palestinians had been killed prior to Dec. 28 vs. five Israelis, according to B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights body,

And Israel's crippling economic blockade had prompted the UN special rapporteur Richard Falk to say on Dec. 9 that Israel's collective punishments amounted to "a crime against humanity," and that the International Criminal Court ought to investigate whether Israeli leaders and military commanders should be indicted.

He noted that the last time there had been "such a flurry of denunciations by normally cautious UN officials" was during the reign of the apartheid government in South Africa.

On Nov. 21, the chief of UN Relief and Works Agency, Karen Abu Zayd, said supplies had run out. She reported "a chronic anemia problem" and "the stunting of children."

All this was long before the latest carnage, which foreign journalists have been prevented from witnessing. Dead, as of yesterday, were 650 Gazans, a fifth of them civilians.