[martin14]

As long as Hamas fires one rocket into Israel,
the Iraelis have the right to defend themselves vigorously.

Occupation of Gaza ended in 2005.
The Gazans have had time to build something different for themselves,
there are other border crossings into Gaza, which doesnt match
the blockade bit.

Instead they build weapons and wage war.

[Zipperfish]

martin14 wrote:

As long as Hamas fires one rocket into Israel,
the Iraelis have the might to defend themselves vigorously.

Fixed.

[DerbyX]

Read the article. Israel isn't some innocent little country. It was clearly doing alot of provoking on its own and eventually Hamas responded in kind.

[martin14]

DerbyX wrote:

Read the article. Israel isn't some innocent little country. It was clearly doing alot of provoking on its own and eventually Hamas responded in kind.

I didnt say Israel was 100% innocent, and trying to talk about
who started it in that region is pretty silly; you can go back
a long time for that.

How many rockets did Hamas fire into Israel in 2008 ?
Did they ever really stop ?

[DerbyX]

martin14 wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

Read the article. Israel isn't some innocent little country. It was clearly doing alot of provoking on its own and eventually Hamas responded in kind.

I didnt say Israel was 100% innocent, and trying to talk about
who started it in that region is pretty silly; you can go back
a long time for that.

How many rockets did Hamas fire into Israel in 2008 ?
Did they ever really stop ?

Actually yes. The article and others I've read stated the truce was holding up until the rocket barrage on the Hamas side. Its obvious that Israeli actions in 2008 were clearly provocative in nature and using the very logic of everybody defending Israel were clearly justly responded to with attacks by Hamas.

Its also just as right to say that as long as Israel occupies land taken in force then its no different then then any other country invading another country.

[commanderkai]

Scape wrote:

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

Um...no...the truce was broken when the first rockets were fired, and that was long before November 5th.

Actually, read the article carefully. "The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm."

Most serious break? So basically there were other breaks, and Wikipedia sums them up well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ro ... #September

Read all of those. Israel did not break the truce. To further make this point. The truce came into effect June 19.

" June 24, 2008
Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas"

[martin14]

right, so firing rockets from Gaza into Isael doesnt count ??

looks like 4 days of cease fire


and Derby, Israel dosen't occupy Gaza, hasnt for years now.

How many more times does that need to be pointed out.

please take off the blinders and stop posting lies.

[DerbyX]

martin14 wrote:

right, so firing rockets from Gaza into Isael doesnt count ??

looks like 4 days of cease fire


and Derby, Israel dosen't occupy Gaza, hasnt for years now.

How many more times does that need to be pointed out.

please take off the blinders and stop posting lies.

1) Sending troops into Gaza in small scale operations counts.

2) Its not just Gaza. Israel should be forced to withdraw all illegal settlements and the original plan to have a Palestinian state be implemented.

3) Most of you cheering for Israel just want revenge. You aren't posting any type of solutions other then the Palestinians suck it up and live under Israeli rule. Thats unacceptable to me let alone the Palestinian people.

The Israelis started this. Thats why they don't have world support despite their hard done by routine. Its true that Hamas hinders rather then helps the plight of the Palestinian people but then neither does Israel.

Despite all the crap about how its the Israelis always being fired on first there is the fact of the sheer number of Palestinian civilians being killed, a number greatly exceeding Israeli deaths. Given that this dusgusting "reprisal" will do nothing more then kill innocent Palestinians and swell the ranks of Hamas and Hezbollah and insure a new batch of people with reasons to want to kill israelis they should be condemned for it.

[martin14]

stop trying to twist and turn, we are discussing Gaza here,
there are no active military operations in the West Bank.

I have posted solutions: cut a deal, for both sides.
Pretty tough to do when one side declares in the charter
the destruction of Israel.


so war is only fair when equal numbers of people are killed ?


Why are you so happy to give Hamas a free pass because they build crap rockets and
cant aim for shit ?

By your own sentence, Israel should launch about 6000 shells into Gaza,
then they should stop. Ok, no problem

[commanderkai]

DerbyX wrote:

1) Sending troops into Gaza in small scale operations counts.

Of course it does. But a cease fire/truce isn't an on-off switch for one side. If Hamas can launch mortars and rockets five days after the cease fire, then the cease fire/truce was broken at that exact moment. Israel should of announced right after that rocket attack, to the world, that the cease fire was broken by Hamas. You can't blame Israel for breaking a truce that was already broken

[DerbyX]

martin14 wrote:

stop trying to twist and turn, we are discussing Gaza here,
there are no active military operations in the West Bank.

I have posted solutions: cut a deal, for both sides.
Pretty tough to do when one side declares in the charter
the destruction of Israel.


so war is only fair when equal numbers of people are killed ?


Why are you so happy to give Hamas a free pass because they build crap rockets and
cant aim for shit ?

By your own sentence, Israel should launch about 6000 shells into Gaza,
then they should stop. Ok, no problem

The spin is high on all sides. Gaza isn't an isolated part of the problem. Stop trying to say that Israel doesn't provoke anybody or doesn't deserve to have rockets fired at it when it conducts military operations that result in high numbers of casualties on one side, casualties that include civilians. Those deaths are exactly the reason why they decide to fire rockets back at Israeli civilian areas.

Yes, when the Palestinins are losing some 20X more civilians then Israel is clearly in the wrong because another way can be found. All this will do is ensure exactly what experts keep saying, mainly that all it does is swell the ranks and energize the movement of the very people they are trying to destroy and increase the very conduct they want to stop.

Clearly their 2008 military actions provoked the rocket attacks and was clearly the wrong thing to do because it is simply repeating the same cycle of violence.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

1) Sending troops into Gaza in small scale operations counts.

Of course it does. But a cease fire/truce isn't an on-off switch for one side. If Hamas can launch mortars and rockets five days after the cease fire, then the cease fire/truce was broken at that exact moment. Israel should of announced right after that rocket attack, to the world, that the cease fire was broken by Hamas. You can't blame Israel for breaking a truce that was already broken

You can't blame them for firing rockets when Israel attacks them either and the evidence says they did. What we can do is expect Israel to be smart enough to realize that all this does is worsen their cause and strengthen their enemy.

In addition. Considering that everytime Israel strikes it destroys any legitamite security infrastructure the Palestinians have. It renders their ability to prevent isolated rocket attacks nearly impossible. Thats why your wiki reference is mostly isolated rocket attacks by individuals who likely have the ability to simply avoid anybody actually trying to stop them, individuals who don't care about peace but can'e be stopped by those who do. The rest are acts of revenge when Israel attacks and kills people who may not be responsible.

[martin14]

oh, so Israel DESERVES to have rockets fired at it ??

So call your friends in Hamas and tell to come out and fight like men,
instead of hiding behind the skirts of the women.

Stop building weapons in universities.
Stop storing weapons in mosques.
Stop firing weapons from hospitals.

Well done Derb, glad to see you support attacking civilians

[DerbyX]

martin14 wrote:

oh, so Israel DESERVES to have rockets fired at it ??

So call your friends in Hamas and tell to come out and fight like men,
instead of hiding behind the skirts of the women.

Stop building weapons in universities.
Stop storing weapons in mosques.
Stop firing weapons from hospitals.

Well done Derb, glad to see you support attacking civilians

Seems to me you are the one doing that. Nothing like dead Palestinian chuldren on the news to cheer you up eh?

From above which you would have missed.

In addition. Considering that everytime Israel strikes it destroys any legitamite security infrastructure the Palestinians have. It renders their ability to prevent isolated rocket attacks nearly impossible. Thats why your wiki reference is mostly isolated rocket attacks by individuals who likely have the ability to simply avoid anybody actually trying to stop them, individuals who don't care about peace but can'e be stopped by those who do. The rest are acts of revenge when Israel attacks and kills people who may not be responsible.

Peaceful Palestinians have little if any ability to stop rocket attacks but they die anyway and when they do their surviving family members often join the non-peaceful side.

[DerbyX]

BTW, just to set you straight, Disagreeing with Israel does not constitute anti-semitism. Thats just the dumbest argument ever considering Israelis disagree with their countries actions all the time and loads of jewish people abroad do as well.