[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever wrote:

Harris massively cut taxes as well, so he made the deliberate policy choice to fund tax cuts that benefited business elites and wealthy rather than fund schools and hospitals.The cuts and closures he carried out were MASSIVE and unprecedented and already came in the wake of massive cuts made under Rae.

Chretien and Martin cut 30 billion in health care transfer payments while Harris was in office.

When Harris got into office, Ontario was spending ~17 billion on Health Care annually. When Harris left office, it was close to 25 billion. 47% increase even while the Feds cut transfer payments.

He also brought forth the 24/7 Telehealth service which has been great for Ontario.

Was there difficult choices? Sure. The same choices McGuinty is going to have to make now, but I don't think he's got the balls.

Also keep in mind, McGuinty nailed us with that massive health care tax all while removing services from OHIP.

BeaverFever wrote:

With respect to Ornge, I'm not blaming Harris but the right-wing "arms length, "operate like a business" ideology that was so popular with Harris and still is with right-wingers is what led to problems there..

Kinda like McGuinty has done with Service Ontario and all the privately run medical imaging clinics?

It's becoming more and more popular. Why?

It saves money.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce wrote:

Chretien and Martin cut 30 billion in health care transfer payments while Harris was in office.

When Harris got into office, Ontario was spending ~17 billion on Health Care annually. When Harris left office, it was close to 25 billion. 47% increase even while the Feds cut transfer payments.

He also brought forth the 24/7 Telehealth service which has been great for Ontario.

Was there difficult choices? Sure. The same choices McGuinty is going to have to make now, but I don't think he's got the balls.

All the while choosing to cut taxes. Many of those so-called "difficult choices" woulnd't have been necessary if he'd just left the tax base alone but his ideology wouldn't allow that so we all suffered as a result. There was no need for the tax cuts and corporate give-aways.

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Also keep in mind, McGuinty nailed us with that massive health care tax all while removing services from OHIP.

As already mentionted, there was a deep hole to dig ourselves out of.

BeaverFever wrote:

With respect to Ornge, I'm not blaming Harris but the right-wing "arms length, "operate like a business" ideology that was so popular with Harris and still is with right-wingers is what led to problems there..

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Kinda like McGuinty has done with Service Ontario and all the privately run medical imaging clinics?
It's becoming more and more popular. Why?

No, Service Ontario remains a an entity that is government owned, 95% government-funded, staffed by unionized government employees and reports directly up through the Ministry of Government and Consumer Services and also to the various stakeholder ministries whose services are offered through the channel. Direct oversight of SO is done by a board of Deputy Ministers (i.e. senior career bureaucrats from the stakeholder Ministries) rather than a part-time board of party hacks and "esteemed" members of the business community. Ironically, Service Ontario has been a tremendous success story across North America. Jurisdictions across Canada and the US send delegates up here to Toronto to study it as a model. It is also not a revenue-generating activity, as mentioned user fees are only expected to generate about 5% of revenue. The only thing SO has in common with the private sector is that its mandate emphasizes customer service. SO's major money-saving element (if there is one)is that it is a single service window for government services and so eliminates redundancies of each Ministry having its own service window.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever wrote:

All the while choosing to cut taxes. Many of those so-called "difficult choices" woulnd't have been necessary if he'd just left the tax base alone but his ideology wouldn't allow that so we all suffered as a result. There was no need for the tax cuts and corporate give-aways.

And yet, balanced the books.

McGuinty has done the same, have you criticized him for doing similar?

8.4 billion this year on HST input tax credits, cutting the corporate income tax, and eliminating the corporate capital tax.

And now he's going to have to do a little cutting himself.

BeaverFever wrote:

As already mentionted, there was a deep hole to dig ourselves out of.

The hole now is bigger than ever.

Do you tax more or spend less?

I guess you support the tax more option compared to the cut and get costs in line option.

BeaverFever wrote:

No, Service Ontario remains a an entity that is government owned

And yet, change is in the wind.

Point being, regardless of whether or not they're directly involved or at an "arms length" it's the governments responsibility for how they spend OUR money.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce wrote:

BeaverFever wrote:

All the while choosing to cut taxes. Many of those so-called "difficult choices" woulnd't have been necessary if he'd just left the tax base alone but his ideology wouldn't allow that so we all suffered as a result. There was no need for the tax cuts and corporate give-aways.

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And yet, balanced the books.

Well, no, he clame close but he didn't really. And balanced budgets mean nothing if you've casued the type of mayhem he caused. Sure, the schools and hospitals are understaffed and overcrowded and youre all buried in user fees and everything is turning to shit, but hey, the government is debt free...are you? Get used to the new normal!!!

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McGuinty has done the same, have you criticized him for doing similar?

8.4 billion this year on HST input tax credits, cutting the corporate income tax, and eliminating the corporate capital tax.
And now he's going to have to do a little cutting himself.

Are you complaining? I can at least grant some credibility to a government that doesn't believe in tax and budget cuts when they actually implement them. And ya, the promised corporate tax cuts are themselves rumored to be scrapped as part of his "cuts" because a tax cuts are budget expense themselves.

BeaverFever wrote:

As already mentionted, there was a deep hole to dig ourselves out of.

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The hole now is bigger than ever.

That's as true for the private sector and for most government accross North America and Europe as it is for the Ontario gov't given the anemic economy thats plaged the entire 1st world for going on 5 years now. You can't blame McGuinty for the weather or the macro-economic landscape.

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Do you tax more or spend less?

Depends. Right now I say tax the same for a long long time, make the smallest budget cuts and eventually growth will bring revenues. The problem is, as soon as the good times come, governments start cutting taxes because there is less pressure on them. Imagine if every time your RRSP experienced a gain, you withdrew it and went shopping. Youd be retiring to your childrens basement and having cat food for dinner. I would love it if nobody cut taxes ever ever again.

BeaverFever wrote:

No, Service Ontario remains a an entity that is government owned

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And yet, change is in the wind.

Is it?

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Point being, regardless of whether or not they're directly involved or at an "arms length" it's the governments responsibility for how they spend OUR money.

Agreed. Unfortunately, we are learning this lesson the hard way, having drunk the right-wing kool-aid that told us these agencies work best when they are set up as private or quasi-private entities run by businessmen with minimal government interference.