[Newsbot]

Title: Ontario now adding debt even faster than before
Category: Provincial Politics
Posted By: N_Fiddledog
Date: 2018-04-05 09:39:15
Canadian

[N_Fiddledog]

This surprised me because I was told recently that Ontario under Kathleen Wynne had become some sort of economic marvel of success.

How could that be I wondered when back in 2016 we were hearing stuff like the below?

"Ontario will shed its status as a poor cousin of Confederation in the coming years, not because its economic fortunes are rebounding, but because resource-rich Alberta is falling on hard times."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/po ... e27831080/

And I might have imagined it but weren't manufacturing jobs leaving Ontario?

I heard the Employment stats got a spike from part-time jobs but then Kathy raised the minimum wage and last I heard that stat was heading into the pooper.

[Coach85]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

This surprised me because I was told recently that Ontario under Kathleen Wynne had become some sort of economic marvel of success.

How could that be I wondered when back in 2016 we were hearing stuff like the below?

"Ontario will shed its status as a poor cousin of Confederation in the coming years, not because its economic fortunes are rebounding, but because resource-rich Alberta is falling on hard times."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/po ... e27831080/

And I might have imagined it but weren't manufacturing jobs leaving Ontario?

I heard the Employment stats got a spike from part-time jobs but then Kathy raised the minimum wage and last I heard that stat was heading into the pooper.

Our finances are in bad shape. I think we'll find it's much worse once the Liberals are out of office.

[Freakinoldguy]

1:

INFOGR--ON-CA DEBT--hi-res-SMALLER--14 MAR 17.jpg [ 759.71 KiB | Viewed 75 times ]

But hey, there's still alot of Liberal voters in the Province who don't seem to mind.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

This surprised me because I was told recently that Ontario under Kathleen Wynne had become some sort of economic marvel of success.

How could that be I wondered when back in 2016 we were hearing stuff like the below?

"Ontario will shed its status as a poor cousin of Confederation in the coming years, not because its economic fortunes are rebounding, but because resource-rich Alberta is falling on hard times."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/po ... e27831080/

And I might have imagined it but weren't manufacturing jobs leaving Ontario?

I heard the Employment stats got a spike from part-time jobs but then Kathy raised the minimum wage and last I heard that stat was heading into the pooper.

Ok I’ll take the bait.

Sp you know that the budget and the economy are 2 different things right?

Employment didn’t just “get a spike from part-time jobs” it’s been good for a while, currently at the lowest since July 2000. Too early to tell effect of minimum wage increase , so far nothing in the data.

Unemployment rate:



Manufacturing is up over last year but really it fell off a cliff over a decade ago due to exchange rate, automation and high oil prices at the time and is probably never coming back. But people now work in other - possibly better - sectors, the unemployment rate is low so not really an issue.

THE ABOVE SAID as I’ve stated repeatedly I’m not bothered by debt BUT what I don’t like about this Liberal budget is that their sudden decision to run such a big deficit is a total about- face from their recent pledge they would run surpluses. It’s not like there’s been some major economic event that would justify such a sudden policy reversal. It’s this kind of politics that pisses off people like me.

[housewife]

Daughter was at meetings last week her manufacturing association has looked at the US association and has decided to become political. The Ontario government is killing them. Not that anyone in Toronto will care as they aren’t in the gta.


I am just so proud to live in the province with the highest debt. And yeah that was sarcasm

[BeaverFever]

housewife housewife:

I am just so proud to live in the province with the highest debt. And yeah that was sarcasm

It really doesn’t matter. It’s not a contest. Greece’s economy melted down when it’s debt was 180% of its GDP. Ontario’s is 40% of GDP so we’re no where near the danger zone.

[housewife]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

housewife housewife:

I am just so proud to live in the province with the highest debt. And yeah that was sarcasm

It really doesn’t matter. It’s not a contest. Greece’s economy melted down when it’s debt was 180% of its GDP. Ontario’s is 40% of GDP so we’re no where near the danger zone.

Really that’s your answer. It’s ok cause Greece is worse. I don’t see how that’s relevant

[BeaverFever]

Because “government debt” is nothing like personal debt. It’s not like a person with a mortgage or a credit card or a bank loan or anything else you’d be familiar with.

It is basically what savings bonds are. When government has debt it means the government sold bonds to investors in order to raise funds instead of taking the money out of taxpayer revenue. . The bonds have a set maturity date which can be anywhere from 30 days to 30 years in the future depending on the bond, which is when the investors gets their initial money back. So the debt is actually getting paid off all the time, every month bonds mature and the investorrecoups their investment

Government Bonds are an important part of the savings and investment landscape because unlike stocks, which go up and down and are unpredictable, bonds are basically guaranteed returns because governments never go out of business and can raise their own revenue. They are part of everyone’s investment portfolio. If you have RRSPs or other investments, you probably directly or indirectly own government bonds. If you have a pension, your pension fund most definitely holds a lot of bonds. In fact some of the largest bond holders ste public and private pension plans including the Canada Pension Plan. In fact just about any person, business or entity with money to save or invest owns government bonds. Government debt is basically a transfer of wealth from Canadian investors to the Canadian public for building schools and roads and whatever else and then repayment of that transfer with interest is the return of the investment.

Also all wealth creation is public or private debt. If people could only spend money they already have, there would be no new wealth created. New wealth can only be created when people spend money that doesn’t yet exist - which is what borrowing is.

Lastly that government spending employs all kinds of businesses and public and private employees who build and maintain the roads and schools and sewage so it goes back into the economy.

Every part of this equation is about creating and circulating wealth through the economy. As little as you’re not at Greek levels there’s nothing to be concerned about.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forbes. ... icits/amp/

https://scholars.org/brief/why-there-no ... ional-debt

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forbes. ... -care/amp/

[housewife]

And then you get reports like this

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4435544

Debt may be good for the economy (that class was long ago) but growing debt to waist is stupid. And didn’t I read some where that the government was hiding debt?

And an oldie but still relevant as it has always been and always will be a problem

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglob ... e26525881/

And lets not forget that we have federal debt on top of this.

[BeaverFever]

housewife housewife:

And then you get reports like this

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4435544

Well that’s kind of a dogs breakfast of different issues, some of which are caused by underfunding not overspending

$1:

Debt may be good for the economy (that class was long ago) but growing debt to waist is stupid. And didn’t I read some where that the government was hiding debt?

I don’t know did you?

$1:

And an oldie but still relevant as it has always been and always will be a problem

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglob ... e26525881/

As much a problem in the private sector as it is in government. Worse in fact because private organizations aren’t subject to public scrutiny. Even in informal social network power corrupts.

$1:

And lets not forget that we have federal debt on top of this.

Yeah but same concepts apply. The federal government has its own bonds. In fact the federal government also contols the currency that the dent is issued in and the interest rates so is in an even better position. Greece on the other hand, being part of a larger European economy and having the Euro as its currency was in a bad spot because even though the Greek economy was failing, the value of the Euro wasn’t falling because other European economies were doing well. . In fact I think the Euro might have even gone up. So paradoxically even as their economy failed their currency and debts became more valuable.

[martin14]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Because “government debt” is nothing like personal debt. It’s not like a person with a mortgage or a credit card or a bank loan or anything else you’d be familiar with.

Hmm, that's funny, I don't see you in the Trump thread telling us how much of a hero
Trump now is for his trillion dollar budget.

Can't imagine why ?

housewife housewife:

Debt may be good for the economy (that class was long ago)

Only as long as interest rates remain at historic and unprecedented lows.
Seems too many have forgotten the eighties way too fast.

[martin14]

[BeaverFever]

martin14 martin14:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Because “government debt” is nothing like personal debt. It’s not like a person with a mortgage or a credit card or a bank loan or anything else you’d be familiar with.

Hmm, that's funny, I don't see you in the Trump thread telling us how much of a hero
Trump now is for his trillion dollar budget.

Can't imagine why ?

housewife housewife:

Debt may be good for the economy (that class was long ago)

Only as long as interest rates remain at historic and unprecedented lows.
Seems too many have forgotten the eighties way too fast.

The only funny thing is why aren’t you decrying him for running a debt? Since your religious cult demands that anyone who runs a deficit is the Antichrist.

You must be pretty dense if you think anything I said means I think that any evil incompetent lunatic should be a hero simply for running a deficit. There are numerous reasons to remove trump from office; none of them have anything to do with a balanced budget.

[housewife]

Yes BeaverFever I did. As usual google hates me had to ask my son and listen to the key word speech again but here it is. If the government has done it once and got caught how many times have they done it and not been caught.

https://www.google.ca/amp/ottawacitizen ... l-says/amp


Debt is a double edged sword with interest rates rising its not going to be pretty. Everyone has four layers of debt now (personal, municipal, provincial, and federal) with no control over three. Everyone is doing it isn’t a good argument.