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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:46 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
In what possible way does that have anything to do with Ontarios "Snitch line"for drs who fraudulently bill?

Snitching is a measure of advocacy of the current system that is more about a dismal ideological approach to health care rather than one that really works to save lives and cures ills.

Revolutionary measures are required to overcome the nonsensical trap we are in and I applaud the efforts of the those who run these clinics.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:34 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
.

More and more services will start to be de-listed from Government insurance plans.


And replaced by what? Private insurance? Insurance is insurance. If a private organization is capable of collecting fees from all its members and using the aggregate amount to pay medical bills for those who incur costs, there's no argument that explains why a public organization can't do the same thing. Unless your argument is that rising demand and costs will make insurance of any kind (public or private)impossible. In which case I would expect that the health care industry, the the market and government would adjust accordingly to a more sustainable formula.

Maybe if government would stop catering to demands for new tax cuts every 5 years, there would be more money available. But given the popularity of public health care, the short-term response to rising health care costs will be to divert money from other programs.


Replaced by cash from people's pockets.

Things such as eye exams & chiropractic care are just two examples that have affected me personally that I had to fund out of pocket due to Ontario looking to save a few bucks.

As the demand increases on health care, more and more services will be delisted from our Provincial plans.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:08 pm
 


But if governments and insurers can't afford health costs, individuals won't be able to either. Therefore, the market will adjust and/or government will find someway to intervene.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:52 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
But if governments and insurers can't afford health costs, individuals won't be able to either. Therefore, the market will adjust and/or government will find someway to intervene.


The market adjusts by the government insurance plans, delisting services they used to pay for.

People didn't stop getting eye exams when they delisted them nor have they stopped going to chiro....are less people doing it, sure.....but there's been no intervention at all from the government.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:19 pm
 


The health act was never intended to be a catch all for every possible treatment. The mandate was basic medical coverage. It's time we got back to that and the rest should be private. Also, there are those who want to have an MRI for everything. Although that is covered by the basic coverage when you get 30 or more in 6 months there should be a user fee after a set amount so that we don't end up catering to hypochondriacs.

I'm ok with this snitch line, so many times Doctors end up charging for every service when they know they are not allowed to but as long as no one checks they get paid. Patients can and do call them on this but it can usually backfire for the client. It like a citizens arrest, sure you can do it but it's not your job for a reason.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:52 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
In what possible way does that have anything to do with Ontarios "Snitch line"for drs who fraudulently bill?


Sigh, ok fine, I'll even use Bart's quote to spell it out:

Punishing / forcing the end to / shutting down private options in Canada "..is certainly good news for the health care industry in Michigan and New York state."

My comment was just illustrating how our lack of options and acceptable wait times under the public system is sending people south. Further reducing those options will only increase the flow.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:39 pm
 


BS. You break the law of the land you should pay the price. The law was always there but there is no way to police every single infraction in a timely manner and an audit itself will still have gaps. If anything they should start offering bounties and a cut of the fines being paid out for infractions. This in turn will force a real debate on what should and should not be basic coverage once and for all.

This isn't helping wait times flirting with the law it's screwing with the whole system. There needs to be a review of policy but that doesn't exempt flagrant violations. Just because everyone else does it doesn't stand up in court. These infractions are making the system as a whole spread too thin and taxpayers are footing the bill for benefits that should not be covered.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:10 am
 


Benn Benn:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
In what possible way does that have anything to do with Ontarios "Snitch line"for drs who fraudulently bill?


Sigh, ok fine, I'll even use Bart's quote to spell it out:

Punishing / forcing the end to / shutting down private options in Canada "..is certainly good news for the health care industry in Michigan and New York state."

My comment was just illustrating how our lack of options and acceptable wait times under the public system is sending people south. Further reducing those options will only increase the flow.


1) Sigh, ok fine, I'll spell it out again:
This artcile wasn't about patients seeking private options or who want to pay more for a 'premium service'. It was about patients who were seeking public care but were lied to by unscrupulous doctors and tricked into paying out-of-pocket for covered services and/or additional unecessary services not required by their tretment. Even in the US doctors are not allowed to lie to their patients (at least not blatantly).

E.g. The doctor treats the patient, gets paid by OHIP for the procedure but lies to the patient, saying "by the way, this wasn't covered by OHIP, so you owe me $1,000." Or the doctor says "your OHIP-covered treatment won't be effective unless you participate in a special, non-covere,d pre-and post-treatment aroma-therapy session. By pure conincedence, I just happen to run such a session...that will be $1,000 please."

2)Evidence of Canadians seeking health treatment in US is anecdotal at best. The stats seem to show that the numbers of average people who do are are not statistically significant because the costs are very very high. It seems to be on the order of maybe a dozen Canadians a year. And for many of them, the medical "need" for the urgent treatment is questionable.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:45 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2)Evidence of Canadians seeking health treatment in US is anecdotal at best. The stats seem to show that the numbers of average people who do are are not statistically significant because the costs are very very high. It seems to be on the order of maybe a dozen Canadians a year. And for many of them, the medical "need" for the urgent treatment is questionable.


Bigger than the enormous baker's dozen in fact. The following is not in absolute numbers form but the interest is certainly no mole-hill.

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3117370

How big is the mound under your rug?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:13 am
 


scarecrowe scarecrowe:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2)Evidence of Canadians seeking health treatment in US is anecdotal at best. The stats seem to show that the numbers of average people who do are are not statistically significant because the costs are very very high. It seems to be on the order of maybe a dozen Canadians a year. And for many of them, the medical "need" for the urgent treatment is questionable.


Bigger than the enormous baker's dozen in fact. The following is not in absolute numbers form but the interest is certainly no mole-hill.

http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3117370

How big is the mound under your rug?

It's simply a case of the grass is always greener on the other side. In 2007 or 2008(can't remember offhand) The US had a total of around 65,000 people IIRC, enter the country for health care/medical reasons. IN 2008, there were an estimated 750,000 Americans who sought health care/medical procedures outside of the US.
Just sayin'.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:21 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Rhonda Seidman-Carlson, president-elect of the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario. Rhonda Seidman-Carlson, president-elect of the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario.:

“That is a slippery slope,” she said “You start having a for-profit system.”


We have a for-profit system you tool!

Don't pretend to be naive for the sake of making a point in an article.

Let's wake up people, 100% publicly funded health care isn't sustainable in Canada.


Sure it is sustainable. We might not be able to cover every medical service (like dentistry, eye care, chiropractors, etc) to everyone, but we definitely have the ability to fund vital medical services for everyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:30 pm
 


How is private care any more sustainable? The US system is far less efficient and way more costly. It's easy to think you'll save money on a private system if you're in good health and don't need much care - but at some point in your life you'll need a lot more care, and that's when you'll hope you have our system. Which the US does, actually for seniors, exactly the population that costs the system the most. It's a mugs game to only insure the high cost people - the purpose of insurance is to spread the risk. That's like an auto insurer only insuring unmarried males under the age of 30 - they would be broke in no time.

We can even afford to cover basic dentistry - it's actually a preventative measure that saves health care $$$. Of course cosmetic dentistry shouldn't be covered, but the rest, yes.

Chiropractic, personally I think is bullshit and should not be covered.

There are things we can do to make the system even more efficient. Use nurse practitioners for a lot of general practice. Pay doctors a salary instead of fee for service. Break the doctor's monopoly in the system. That's what the Europeans do, and they get better bang for their buck.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:33 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
were lied to by unscrupulous doctors and tricked into paying out-of-pocket for covered services and/or additional unecessary services not required by their tretment. Even in the US doctors are not allowed to lie to their patients (at least not blatantly).



If the issue is in fact that they are being tricked and somewhat blackmailed into paying for services then I agree, it needs to be stopped.

Fact is in Gatineau and Ottawa they already have Sentinal which is a for profit private medical clinic you can get serviced at and for profit private MRI clinics etc. But these places are not also billing OHIP or Quebec health.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:43 pm
 


andyt andyt:
Chiropractic, personally I think is bullshit and should not be covered.


Well, any shred of respect I may have had left for you just went down the shitter.

Two orthopaedic surgeons told me I needed back surgery.

How much would that have cost the system? The cost of the surgery plus the months of rehab.

I didn't want to go through the surgery and all the BS...I started looking elsewhere.

My chiropractor is the reason I'm walking normally today.

Pain free and for a fraction of the cost.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:55 pm
 


You should be happy I say not to fund it - that's what you want anyway. In BC it's not covered anymore. I did go when it was still covered because I had pain in my shoulder that the doctor could find no reason for. All the Chiro did was crack my neck, with no improvement to the shoulder. Physio with ultrasound finally helped, or maybe it was just the passage of time.


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