[romanP]

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed. Others sign up believing they will be defending their country, and rightly consider the war in Iraq as a gross misuse of national defense resources.

[Choban]

poquas wrote:

I'm taking the other side on this, at least on a somewhat limited basis.

Those who were in the reserves, National Guard, or anything before the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, and found the war as offensive as the rest of the planet did, should have some choice.

The same goes for those who are re-deployed repeatedly or are continuously having their tour extended.

My brother in law (A Major who is on his second tour in Afghanistan now) even sympathized with a lot of the guys in the States. He said that if Canada had gone into Iraq when the US first asked, we’d probably have a lot of people doing the same thing. Putting your life on the line for a cause you can’t get behind is one thing, but putting your life on the line on the basis of a lie is despicable.

Canadian reservists don't have to go to war, it's a volunteer basis, I don't know if the same holds true in the states though. I still say that they signed up, they knew what was in store and at some point I'm assuming they supported the war effort. The I changed my mind story just doesn't cut it when it comes to military service, that's why theres basic training and conditioning. They can feel free to disagree with it after their 3-5 years or whatever they signed up for, it's not a public sector job where they can just quit.
We aren't in Iraq because our government didn't see any proof of WMD's and sided with NATO on the issue, we are in Afghanistan because our government knows that's where the Taliban was based and training. I know alot of military guys that think we should've gone to Iraq though.
I should also ad that Iraq being a lie may be true, but eventually that man would have had to be dealt with so better now than in the future, Bush Sr. should've finished the job in the first gulf war.

[romanP]

There wasn't anything to deal with. Saddam Hussein wasn't threatening to invade anyone. The only people he was hurting were his own, and even a lot of Iraqis think things were better under Saddam than they are now. Back then, they could walk the streets without worrying about being blown up by a guy with a bomb strapped to his waist.

[EyeBrock]

The military isn't just a job Lemmy. All of us enter into contracts to serve a certain length.

If we used your argument the whole military could quit when a war starts. Not a good idea.

As for your mate and LBJ, that was an era of the 'draft' and forced conscription. Personally, I'm not a fan of draft dodgers but I can see why they did it.

We have and are talking about volunteers who signed up to serve while their country was actively engaged in combat, then ran away, deserting to Canada.
An entirely different set of circumstances to Vietnam and comparing the two is disingenuous.

[EyeBrock]

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed. Others sign up believing they will be defending their country, and rightly consider the war in Iraq as a gross misuse of national defense resources.

Come on roman. These guys signed up after 911, after the US invasion of Afghanistan and a lot after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

And as for not knowing what the military does, I'm just not having that. US combat operations have been all over the TV news, newspapers, radio, internet etc since 2001.

I get that you are opposed to war and your a peace-loving pacifist.
That's why god put people on the planet like me, to protect you shy sheep from the wolves.

This is about people who VOLUNTEERED to join a US Army that was in COMBAT, at war then they RAN AWAY to another country rather than do what they had signed up and swore an oath to do.

This stuff cannot go unpunished and we should have sent them back the day they got here.

[romanP]

EyeBrock wrote:

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed. Others sign up believing they will be defending their country, and rightly consider the war in Iraq as a gross misuse of national defense resources.

Come on roman. These guys signed up after 911, after the US invasion of Afghanistan and a lot after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

And then they got repeat tours of duty when they were already exhausted. They didn't go to Iraq to defend their country, they went there to make a mess like some kind of militaristic frat boy party.

Quote:

And as for not knowing what the military does, I'm just not having that. US combat operations have been all over the TV news, newspapers, radio, internet etc since 2001.

You'd be surprised at what some people don't know. For instance, they must have found jurors for OJ Simpson's case somehow, despite his name being all over the news for over a year.

Quote:

I get that you are opposed to war and your a peace-loving pacifist.

I'm opposed to war without very strong justification. There was no strong justification for the war in Iraq. There were no chemical or nuclear weapons, especially none that could touch North America in any way. From there, it just became a game of more lies upon lies, and the people lying believing their own lies. America attacked a sovereign nation based on evidence that was both rigged and believed by the people who rigged it. They broke an already barely functioning society and then refused to fix it. If I had accidentally signed up for that, I would do everything I could to quit my job too.

I don't agree with the way we attacked Afghanistan, but I think it's important that we kick out the Taliban now that we're there. The people in Afghanistan have shown that they want us there, because there is still a lot of work to do to make everything functional again, for the first time in twenty-some years.

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That's why god put people on the planet like me, to protect you shy sheep from the wolves.

The soldiers in Iraq aren't really protecting anyone but themselves. That's a very dishonourable position to put soldiers into.

Quote:

This is about people who VOLUNTEERED to join a US Army that was in COMBAT, at war then they RAN AWAY to another country rather than do what they had signed up and swore an oath to do.

If you sign up and swear an oath to defend your country, and you end up attacking another country for the benefit of corporate profits, do you really think that's upholding the oath you swore? If it were me, weighing breaking the oath I swore because the leader of my country asked me to and going along with it anyway, or breaking the oath I swore because what the leader of my country is asking me to do is morally repugnant and breaks the oath anyway, I'd choose the latter.

[EyeBrock]

You swear an oath to serve your country, not just a specific aim you agree with personally. You don't cherry-pick your mission, you do your duty.

Your long, rambling and groundless response says nothing.

Roman, you don't need to fight or join up because people like me see it as an honourable vocation.

I don't think it's the life for you anyway so your views on this are mere speculation and fantasy.
You can't even stand up and be counted on for your own nickname, so spare me your blustering bravado.

I'd be very suprised to find any serving or ex-military guys who agree with your stance on this, now why do you think that is?


These guys are all volunteers and were well aware of what the US Army was and is doing.

They dishonoured themselves and they will be held accountable, as is proper.

Now go away or I will taunt you a second time.

[martin14]

Well Roman, the people in the military dont get the luxury of deciding,

and they do swear an oath, making it more than a job.


But lets not worry about what you would or would not do,
you will never be in the position to decide anyway.

A professional and volunteer military supports your choice to stay away,
and is probably happier for it.

[kenmore]

Roman may never be in a position to decide, but he is entitled to his opinion.

[kenmore]

Personally I don't see the problem of accepting draft dodgers, we accept thousands of other so called political refugees..

[romanP]

EyeBrock wrote:

You swear an oath to serve your country, not just a specific aim you agree with personally. You don't cherry-pick your mission, you do your duty.

Your long, rambling and groundless response says nothing.

Does it say nothing, or do you just not care to listen?

Quote:

Roman, you don't need to fight or join up because people like me see it as an honourable vocation.

So do I. It's not soldiers that I have a problem with, it's the reasons they get sent to wars, and some of them have a problem with those reasons too.

Quote:

I don't think it's the life for you anyway so your views on this are mere speculation and fantasy.

What I think is speculation and fantasy because of your opinion? I think you're confusing facts and opinion.

Quote:

You can't even stand up and be counted on for your own nickname, so spare me your blustering bravado.

You don't know what I can be counted on for. You've never even met me. A name on the internet is nothing. I have many names on the internet. That's how I separate the people I don't want to meet from the internet from the people I do want to meet at all.

If we're going to talk about reliability based on names, then why don't you use your real name on the this forum? Ohh, guess you can't be counted on to do that!

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I'd be very suprised to find any serving or ex-military guys who agree with your stance on this, now why do you think that is?

You're wrong, or we wouldn't have this thread about deserters.

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These guys are all volunteers and were well aware of what the US Army was and is doing.

How do you know what other people know? I don't know what you know, and you don't know what I know.

[romanP]

martin14 wrote:

Well Roman, the people in the military dont get the luxury of deciding,

and they do swear an oath, making it more than a job.


But lets not worry about what you would or would not do,
you will never be in the position to decide anyway.

A professional and volunteer military supports your choice to stay away,
and is probably happier for it.

You don't know any of that. Every day that I spend fruitlessly looking for bullshit jobs because I have no skills or experience in much of anything that anyone is looking for wears away my confidence that I should even bother trying. I've considered signing up many times. If there is one thing I could easily learn and enjoy doing, it's shooting a gun. But I don't yet feel that I'm already dead, so I don't sign up.

[EyeBrock]

I'd be suprised if the CF would want you with that attitude roman.

I'd try travelling.

[Choban]

romanP wrote:

There wasn't anything to deal with. Saddam Hussein wasn't threatening to invade anyone. The only people he was hurting were his own, and even a lot of Iraqis think things were better under Saddam than they are now. Back then, they could walk the streets without worrying about being blown up by a guy with a bomb strapped to his waist.

We had to deal with him when he invaded Kuwait, do you think nothing else would have happened in the near future.
I agree with you to a point, Canada has no business in Iraq, I only feel it was a matter of time until we did though given the history. As far as getting blown up in the streets, well really is that the US's fault, they aren't suicide bombing markets?

[commanderkai]

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed.

Whoever does not know this, is frankly, an idiot. Unless military recruiters say they give their soldiers Superman powers, any person who believes that is just foolish. Come on....