[Lemmy]

EyeBrock wrote:

The military isn't just a job Lemmy. All of us enter into contracts to serve a certain length. If we used your argument the whole military could quit when a war starts. Not a good idea.

We've been down this road before. I'm almost right on the fence on this issue. But, we're talking about volunteers. I'm in favour of conscription. In that case, they try to quit and you shoot them.

EyeBrock wrote:

As for your mate and LBJ, that was an era of the 'draft' and forced conscription. Personally, I'm not a fan of draft dodgers but I can see why they did it. We have and are talking about volunteers who signed up to serve while their country was actively engaged in combat, then ran away, deserting to Canada.
An entirely different set of circumstances to Vietnam and comparing the two is disingenuous.

My friend was not a dodger, he deserted. He volunteered and served a tour. He deserted when they were gonna send him back. And, since it's Canada Day, he's a GREAT CANADIAN. People of his character should be WELCOMED to Canada. I wasn't suggesting any comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam. I was merely stating that I know a guy who deserted and I'd do anything for the man. Btw, he was pardoned by Jimmy Carter, 4 months too late to visit his dying father or attend his funeral

[romanP]

Choban wrote:

romanP wrote:

There wasn't anything to deal with. Saddam Hussein wasn't threatening to invade anyone. The only people he was hurting were his own, and even a lot of Iraqis think things were better under Saddam than they are now. Back then, they could walk the streets without worrying about being blown up by a guy with a bomb strapped to his waist.

We had to deal with him when he invaded Kuwait, do you think nothing else would have happened in the near future.

Kuwait was thirteen years previous to this current war, and we knew Saddam Hussein was doing something wrong then because he invaded another country in order to annex it. This time, he didn't do that. In fact, he didn't do anything. He already got bit once, why would he try the same thing again. Saddam Hussein may have been crazy, but he wasn't stupid.

Quote:

As far as getting blown up in the streets, well really is that the US's fault, they aren't suicide bombing markets?

Nobody was suicide bombing anyone in Iraq before America invaded.

[romanP]

commanderkai wrote:

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed.

Whoever does not know this, is frankly, an idiot.

Ignorant, idiot, whatever you want to call it, such people exist. A lot of people have joined their military for previous wars under the assumption that it would be some glorious undertaking, only to find out that they would end up, say, slogging through muddy, rat-infested trenches with a very slim chance of living to see the another day.

Quote:

Unless military recruiters say they give their soldiers Superman powers, any person who believes that is just foolish. Come on....

The recruiters tell people silly things like "Join the army and you can get paid to play in a band!"

[Bodah]

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed. Others sign up believing they will be defending their country, and rightly consider the war in Iraq as a gross misuse of national defense resources.

Ignorance is never an excuse, even though your trying to blow smoke up our asses. Everyone knows if you join the military, no matter what your doing there. There is a chance you can die from making mash potatoes to clearing out an IED.

[EyeBrock]

Lemmy wrote:

EyeBrock wrote:

The military isn't just a job Lemmy. All of us enter into contracts to serve a certain length. If we used your argument the whole military could quit when a war starts. Not a good idea.

We've been down this road before. I'm almost right on the fence on this issue. But, we're talking about volunteers. I'm in favour of conscription. In that case, they try to quit and you shoot them.

EyeBrock wrote:

As for your mate and LBJ, that was an era of the 'draft' and forced conscription. Personally, I'm not a fan of draft dodgers but I can see why they did it. We have and are talking about volunteers who signed up to serve while their country was actively engaged in combat, then ran away, deserting to Canada.
An entirely different set of circumstances to Vietnam and comparing the two is disingenuous.

My friend was not a dodger, he deserted. He volunteered and served a tour. He deserted when they were gonna send him back. And, since it's Canada Day, he's a GREAT CANADIAN. People of his character should be WELCOMED to Canada. I wasn't suggesting any comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam. I was merely stating that I know a guy who deserted and I'd do anything for the man. Btw, he was pardoned by Jimmy Carter, 4 months too late to visit his dying father or attend his funeral

I not in favour of conscription unless the country is in dire straits. I've worked with NATO conscripts.
I generally found that they were pretty useless, dis-interested and scruffy.
You can't blame them, they were forced to join up. Pressed men are not the best soldiers and I wouldn’t want to work with them again.

On your mate, hey, I'm sure he's a great guy but he's also a deserter and it's not a character trait I personally admire.
He chose to break the Military Laws that hold members of the military accountable. Nobody forced him to join and nobody forced him to desert.

You see things differently than me and there is obviously more to this guy’s story, but he is still a deserter. He may be a great guy but to say a deserter is a "great Canadian" rings very hollow to me, you been on the wacki-bacci mate?
How does being a deserter make anybody a "great Canadian"?

On these wankers deserting from Iraq missions, not only did they desert but they were basically undermining the US Army, the same Army that they had friends and comrades still serving in and still in combat.

I saw the press conferences and they bordered on being traitorous. These cowardly deserters were obviously being used by far-left activists bent on showing the US in the worst possible light and that's what this guys who swore an oath of loyalty did, on TV and often.

So do I think we should let them in to Canada? Absolutely not.

[Regina]

romanP wrote:

Nobody was suicide bombing anyone in Iraq before America invaded.

You're right........Sadam bombed and gassed them before they had a chance.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Dont forget about the executing of his friends, and family, who he felt turned against him. Or his son the serial rapist...

[raydan]

Bodah wrote:

Ignorance is never an excuse, even though your trying to blow smoke up our asses. Everyone knows if you join the military, no matter what your doing there. There is a chance you can die from making mash potatoes to clearing out an IED.

If some don't know, I guess they figure it out pretty quick during basic training and don't make it to the end. My son told me that during his training, a few requested to get out. Instead of getting to pack their bags immediately, they have to remain on base a few days while their request is processed.

[FreakyD]

raydan wrote:

Bodah wrote:

Ignorance is never an excuse, even though your trying to blow smoke up our asses. Everyone knows if you join the military, no matter what your doing there. There is a chance you can die from making mash potatoes to clearing out an IED.

If some don't know, I guess they figure it out pretty quick during basic training and don't make it to the end. My son told me that during his training, a few requested to get out. Instead of getting to pack their bags immediately, they have to remain on base a few days while their request is processed.

LOL... awwwww. Come on, these people sign up for the MILITARY, what they hell did they think that meant? Pie and sunshine?

People sign up for a reason... whatever reason, money for school, no other work in their work place, etc. When you sign, you are owned, for those that don't realize this, well, all I can say is there is no excuse for "Stupid". It's an army, it's war.

You can't expect to join, get money for tuition, food and rent and then when YOU decide you don't like it anymore just walk away.

OH and BTW, it is not up to the individual soldier to question the mission, maybe as a citizen you have that right, and I think every citizen is expected you question your government, but as a soldier..... do your duty.

[romanP]

Bodah wrote:

romanP wrote:

American military recruiters often lie about what the military does, in order to attract more people. I don't know how, but some people don't know what the military does, or that signing up could get you killed. Others sign up believing they will be defending their country, and rightly consider the war in Iraq as a gross misuse of national defense resources.

Ignorance is never an excuse, even though your trying to blow smoke up our asses. Everyone knows if you join the military, no matter what your doing there. There is a chance you can die from making mash potatoes to clearing out an IED.

I think that an organisation like the military should be responsible for telling people that their job could kill them if they join.

[romanP]

Regina wrote:

romanP wrote:

Nobody was suicide bombing anyone in Iraq before America invaded.

You're right........Sadam bombed and gassed them before they had a chance.

Such a thing was not a weekly occurance. It was his means of preventing a civil war. And I really don't think anyone who thinks that invading Iraq was a good idea should criticise Saddam Hussein for killing anyone. At least as many, if not more, civilians have died from American ordinance over the past six years than probably were ever killed by Saddam Hussein.

[Lemmy]

EyeBrock wrote:

I not in favour of conscription unless the country is in dire straits. I've worked with NATO conscripts.
I generally found that they were pretty useless, dis-interested and scruffy.
You can't blame them, they were forced to join up. Pressed men are not the best soldiers and I wouldn’t want to work with them again.

In times of need, during war, I should have said. Canada's track record (and the USA's) is to volunteer during times of need.

EyeBrock wrote:

On your mate, hey, I'm sure he's a great guy but he's also a deserter and it's not a character trait I personally admire.
He chose to break the Military Laws that hold members of the military accountable. Nobody forced him to join and nobody forced him to desert.

Well, they did force him to join, but he signed up before that happened. He only deserted after seeing the war crimes being committed by his military.

EyeBrock wrote:

You see things differently than me and there is obviously more to this guy’s story, but he is still a deserter. He may be a great guy but to say a deserter is a "great Canadian" rings very hollow to me, you been on the wacki-bacci mate?
How does being a deserter make anybody a "great Canadian"?

He's a great Canadian for many things he's done during his 30+ years in Canada. He witnessed war crimes and refused to perpetuate them. Would you be equally critical of a Nazi death camp conscript that deserted rather than being part of the extermination of Jews?

EyeBrock wrote:

On these wankers deserting from Iraq missions, not only did they desert but they were basically undermining the US Army, the same Army that they had friends and comrades still serving in and still in combat.

I saw the press conferences and they bordered on being traitorous. These cowardly deserters were obviously being used by far-left activists bent on showing the US in the worst possible light and that's what this guys who swore an oath of loyalty did, on TV and often.

So do I think we should let them in to Canada? Absolutely not.

If they are deserting because they refuse to commit war crimes, then that's a sign of tremendous personal character and those Americans ought to be welcomed as new Canadians.

[Guy_Fawkes]

What war crimes are you talking about?? Please dont say the prison thing, that was the result of not paying close attention to what people are doing. At no point were the people (and I use the term people loosely) at that prison order to do anything illegal. Not to mention that was an isolated incident, and was not indicative of SOPs. The United States Military might be more brazen, fool hardy and Gung Ho then the Canadians but, joing up and going on tour with them does not guarantee you will commit war crimes.

[EyeBrock]

Lemmy wrote:

EyeBrock wrote:

I not in favour of conscription unless the country is in dire straits. I've worked with NATO conscripts.
I generally found that they were pretty useless, dis-interested and scruffy.
You can't blame them, they were forced to join up. Pressed men are not the best soldiers and I wouldn’t want to work with them again.

In times of need, during war, I should have said. Canada's track record (and the USA's) is to volunteer during times of need.

EyeBrock wrote:

On your mate, hey, I'm sure he's a great guy but he's also a deserter and it's not a character trait I personally admire.
He chose to break the Military Laws that hold members of the military accountable. Nobody forced him to join and nobody forced him to desert.

Well, they did force him to join, but he signed up before that happened. He only deserted after seeing the war crimes being committed by his military.

EyeBrock wrote:

You see things differently than me and there is obviously more to this guy’s story, but he is still a deserter. He may be a great guy but to say a deserter is a "great Canadian" rings very hollow to me, you been on the wacki-bacci mate?
How does being a deserter make anybody a "great Canadian"?

He's a great Canadian for many things he's done during his 30+ years in Canada. He witnessed war crimes and refused to perpetuate them. Would you be equally critical of a Nazi death camp conscript that deserted rather than being part of the extermination of Jews?

EyeBrock wrote:

On these wankers deserting from Iraq missions, not only did they desert but they were basically undermining the US Army, the same Army that they had friends and comrades still serving in and still in combat.

I saw the press conferences and they bordered on being traitorous. These cowardly deserters were obviously being used by far-left activists bent on showing the US in the worst possible light and that's what this guys who swore an oath of loyalty did, on TV and often.

So do I think we should let them in to Canada? Absolutely not.

If they are deserting because they refuse to commit war crimes, then that's a sign of tremendous personal character and those Americans ought to be welcomed as new Canadians.

Lemmy, this is a waste of time. You think deserters are good chaps, I don't.

[Regina]

romanP wrote:

Regina wrote:

romanP wrote:

Nobody was suicide bombing anyone in Iraq before America invaded.

You're right........Sadam bombed and gassed them before they had a chance.

Such a thing was not a weekly occurance. It was his means of preventing a civil war. And I really don't think anyone who thinks that invading Iraq was a good idea should criticise Saddam Hussein for killing anyone. At least as many, if not more, civilians have died from American ordinance over the past six years than probably were ever killed by Saddam Hussein.