[Choban]

I have an employee from Iraq, the subject of the US and it's involvement in that country are highly praised by this individual. He fled to escape the daily persecution being visited on his friends and relatives due to their opinions and tribal backgrounds. His brother now runs a successful import/export business in Iraq and my employee will be joining him when the situation stabalizes more over there, he atributes this posative change to US intervention in the country.
While theres no doubt that Bush lied to get his forces in their, and theres no doubt about the oil and gas greed in the region, as a whole he sees these changes as posative.
As far as market bombs and IED's over there, who's bombing who? The majority of "Jihad fighters" in that country are from other muslim countries that flocked to Iraq to fight the western beast, and 90% of the time their targets are markets and other public facilities, how is this fighting the US? I'll tell you, it's aim is to lessen support among the population for the US, plain and simple and it's working, the cost is their muslim brothers and sisters dying.
As far as American boms, it's collateral damage and it's cause is these cowardly jihadis hiding in peoples homes and densly populated areas of the cities over there.

[Yogi]

romanP wrote:

martin14 wrote:

Well Roman, the people in the military dont get the luxury of deciding,

and they do swear an oath, making it more than a job.


But lets not worry about what you would or would not do,
you will never be in the position to decide anyway.

A professional and volunteer military supports your choice to stay away,
and is probably happier for it.

You don't know any of that. Every day that I spend fruitlessly looking for bullshit jobs

because I have no skills or experience in much of anything...

that anyone is looking for wears away my confidence that I should even bother trying. I've considered signing up many times. If there is one thing I could easily learn and enjoy doing, it's shooting a gun. But I don't yet feel that I'm already dead, so I don't sign up.

And yet you continue to come on to these forums and try to convince those people who do possess the skills and experiences... how 'it' really is!

[ShepherdsDog]

The fact that Roman thinks shooting a 'gun' is all the military teaches says it all right there. Join up Roman, it'll be one big party for you......a blanket party. That's if you pass all the aptitude and medical testing(methinks the blood and urine test may prove a bit of a hinderance there), and pick a trade that doesn't have a one year plus waiting list.

[Lemmy]

EyeBrock wrote:

Lemmy, this is a waste of time. You think deserters are good chaps, I don't.

No, I don't think that. I think that some are. Wasn't that the conclusion of the Nurmeberg trials? That men, even though they may face death, are duty-bound to refuse to carry out illegal orders? But we're talking about Iraq, not Vietnam or Nazi Germany. In the present case, I think that anyone who signs on then wants out ought to be allowed out. On that point, as I've said, I'm on the fence, but you're right, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[EyeBrock]

This has zero to do with Nazis and your equating the US Army in Iraq to Nazi's is utter crap.

[Lemmy]

EyeBrock wrote:

This has zero to do with Nazis and your equating the US Army in Iraq to Nazi's is utter crap.

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about Nazis who deserted rather than committing war crimes. I don't know what the USA is doing in Iraq. I do know what the US Army did in Vietnam and my friend's father was right to refuse to be part of it, just as any Nazis who had the guts to refuse to carry out attrocities against Jews were honourable men who should not be labelled as traitors and cowards for deserting.

[martin14]

Lemmy wrote:

In the present case, I think that anyone who signs on then wants out ought to be allowed out.

Simply put, you cannot run a military force this way.

Sometimes the order will come where you know you there is a good
chance you will die, and you do it anyway.

One of the reasons to shoot deserters,
to keep them from totally destroying a unit.


It aint a job with a timecard ....

[Bodah]

romanP wrote:

Bodah wrote:

Ignorance is never an excuse, even though your trying to blow smoke up our asses. Everyone knows if you join the military, no matter what your doing there. There is a chance you can die from making mash potatoes to clearing out an IED.

I think that an organisation like the military should be responsible for telling people that their job could kill them if they join.

I'm pretty sure they do, but if dolts are too lazy to read the fine details of the contract when there signing 4 years of their lives away. Like I said stupidity and ignorance is no excuse.

When I applied to be a firefighter, it basically stated, you can die doing this job.

Alot of military people post on this site, anyone care to weigh in ?

[EyeBrock]

Bodah, this is just far too silly to even address. Roman has no concept of reality and debate with him on this subject is futile really.

[Lemmy]

martin14 wrote:

Simply put, you cannot run a military force this way.

Sometimes the order will come where you know you there is a good
chance you will die, and you do it anyway.

One of the reasons to shoot deserters,
to keep them from totally destroying a unit.

It aint a job with a timecard ....

Yeah, I understand that, and that's exactly why I'm on the fence on this. I wouldn't support someone deserting from a combat mission. I also don't think that someone who wants out should necessarly be allowed to go without some reasonable period of notice. And every single case ought to be evaluated on the individual merits of that case. I guess I just don't accept the "he's a coward piece of shit" label on everyone that wants out, though I'm sure that's an apt label for a significant portion.

[DerbyX]

Lemmy wrote:

martin14 wrote:

Simply put, you cannot run a military force this way.

Sometimes the order will come where you know you there is a good
chance you will die, and you do it anyway.

One of the reasons to shoot deserters,
to keep them from totally destroying a unit.

It aint a job with a timecard ....

Yeah, I understand that, and that's exactly why I'm on the fence on this. I wouldn't support someone deserting from a combat mission. I also don't think that someone who wants out should necessarly be allowed to go without some reasonable period of notice. And every single case ought to be evaluated on the individual merits of that case. I guess I just don't accept the "he's a coward piece of shit" label on everyone that wants out, though I'm sure that's an apt label for a significant portion.

You have been downright reasonable in this debate. While their is certainly a point for those who join up and reap the benefits then balk at the commitment their is also something to be said for those who serve their tour only to find the US military is changing the rules.

The last big debate on this issue had stats showing that the majority of those deserting were soldiers who had served 1 or more tours only to find that their military and government kept lying to them and changing the rules.

I don't see any of the anti-deserter crowd dealing with the issue of the US government pulling crap on soldiers who did their duty.

Those people aren't cowards. They are people who did their duty only to have their country betray them.

[EyeBrock]

When do they get the right to decide that a mission is not for them?

You sign up (not you obviously derby) and you do the mission. Your time exe's, you become a civvy.

[HyperionTheEvil]

poquas wrote:

I'm taking the other side on this, at least on a somewhat limited basis.

Those who were in the reserves, National Guard, or anything before the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, and found the war as offensive as the rest of the planet did, should have some choice.

The same goes for those who are re-deployed repeatedly or are continuously having their tour extended.

My brother in law (A Major who is on his second tour in Afghanistan now) even sympathized with a lot of the guys in the States. He said that if Canada had gone into Iraq when the US first asked, we’d probably have a lot of people doing the same thing. Putting your life on the line for a cause you can’t get behind is one thing, but putting your life on the line on the basis of a lie is despicable.

It is the nature of military service the some choices are taken out of your hands, the military doesn't hide this fact. While the question of joining the military may be questionable. Neverthless if you sign on the dotted line you make a concious decisdion to follow legal orders, whether you happen to 'like' those orders or not.

If a person has qualms about joining any sort of militray srvice teh anser is quite simple. Don't join

[PENATRATOR]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

The fact that Roman thinks shooting a 'gun' is all the military teaches says it all right there. Join up Roman, it'll be one big party for you......a blanket party. That's if you pass all the aptitude and medical testing(methinks the blood and urine test may prove a bit of a hinderance there), and pick a trade that doesn't have a one year plus waiting list.

Roman