[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The rules of relativity still apply. Things with mass can not attain the speed of light. (Photons have no mass). The speed of light in a vacuum is still constant. (the speed of light in an optical fiber is somewhat slower)

But the information the photons send between them occurs faster than light could at that distance. It's just information that is traveling, not any sort of particle. No laws of relativity are broken.

That's the thing that made Einstein skeptical.

Now this is interesting, because I happen to be reading about this exact thing right now. There are a few theorists (mostly mathematical physicists who are pissing off their physical physicist colleagues) who contend that information is not abstract, that information must be physically instantiated, and therefore that information, as a physical thing, is in the realm of physics, not mathematics. (See "The Physical Nature of Information," Landauer, Physics Letters A, 1996) or http://www.informationr.net/ir/18-3/colis/paperC03.html#.V-RHqK3ymUk

That may not sound like much of a claim, but the ontological and epistemological upshots are potentially quite mind-boggling. For instance, the fact that the real source of uncertainty and irreversibility in the universe is because pi(and other universal constants) are irrational. Pi contains information (the relationship of diameter to circumference) but it not executable in the real world (since it goes on forever and would require infinite computing power to calculate it). It could lead to the recasting of all physical laws.

If I'm not mistake, Stephen Hawking lost a bet on that same subject. Physicists postulated that one of the fundamental properties of the Universe that derives from Relativity stating that matter and energy cannot be destroyed, only converted from one form to the other, is that the 'information' about that transformation also cannot be lost. If a photon is given off as a result of a band gap jump of an electron, then somewhere in the universe is the information about that change.

But Professor Hawking said that when a particle generated from Hawking Radiation has one of it's particle pairs enter the event horizon of a black hole, then it's information is lost to this Universe forever. But in 2004, he conceded that the Black Hole did leak 'information' as Radiation as it decayed, because the event horizon wasn't a static place and could fluctuate. They then transmit information about the particles they consume, back to the Universe.

[Thanos]

Gonna be a damn shame when the first bit of information sent instantaneously by this new system will either be porn or something insipid by the Kartrashians. What did the poor greeblie slug-people on Altair VII ever do to us to deserve to be treated that badly?

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

(Photons have no mass)

E2 = p2c2 + m2restc4

A slightly different hypothesis is that photons have no observable mass.

That would fundamentally alter Relativity. A Graviton is also expected to be massless as it too permeates at light speed.

I look at that equation and think "I have work to do today, dammit! I can't be expanding those terms and enjoy the journey of exploration!" especially since I'm rusty at it, and would forget to carry a C somewhere.

Many massless particles especially the force carriers like Gravitons are thought to not pass through the Higgs Field in our four dimensions, but through one of the dimensions our universe must have 'curled up'. (yea, many people are looking at that and squinting now.)

Imagine a tight rope walker. He's walking along a rope, and he sees only two ways, forward and back. Now imagine a spider on that same tightrope. Well, it can go forward and back, but also round and round! It has access to another dimension that we don't. That's how the extra dimensions that Quantum theory says should exist are in the Universe. They are 'all curled up' and we just don't have access to them.

Gravity is thought to be similar, because it acts so much different then the other fundamental forces. For example, a simple magnet is able to counter the gravity of the entire planet, and hold a bit of paper to your fridge. The weak nuclear force between atoms are able to keep your coffee cup from slipping through the surface of your desk in that same gravity field.

But the Strong, weak and electromagnetic forces only act over very short distances. The sun is very far away, but it's gravity, and the gravity of the moon and even Jupiter and Saturn all have measurable effects on the Earth. Gravity acts very weakly, but over huge distances and we don't know why.

The same way, from the looks at that equation, photons might only be massless at rest. While in motion, they lose mass? I know photons and the Higgs Boson are both single Bosons and not composed of any other force particles like mesons are. Photinos?

Damn, I need to catch up on my reading!

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

Gonna be a damn shame when the first bit of information sent instantaneously by this new system will either be porn or something insipid by the Kartrashians. What did the poor greeblie slug-people on Altair VII ever do to us to deserve to be treated that badly?

Perhaps they will think of it as tasting menu?

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

If I'm not mistake, Stephen Hawking lost a bet on that same subject. Physicists postulated that one of the fundamental properties of the Universe that derives from Relativity stating that matter and energy cannot be destroyed, only converted from one form to the other, is that the 'information' about that transformation also cannot be lost. If a photon is given off as a result of a band gap jump of an electron, then somewhere in the universe is the information about that change.

But Professor Hawking said that when a particle generated from Hawking Radiation has one of it's particle pairs enter the event horizon of a black hole, then it's information is lost to this Universe forever. But in 2004, he conceded that the Black Hole did leak 'information' as Radiation as it decayed, because the event horizon wasn't a static place and could fluctuate. They then transmit information about the particles they consume, back to the Universe.

I remember that bet, it was found that black holes are not permanent. They slowly decay and will disappear in time. Enforcing the rule of atrophy. I'm actually surprised that Hawking didn't draw the conclusion that eventually the black hole would need to disappear and return to a state of complete atrophy. Maybe he figured there would always be enough matter or energy around it to maintain?

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I look at that equation and think "I have work to do today, dammit! I can't be expanding those terms and enjoy the journey of exploration!" especially since I'm rusty at it, and would forget to carry a C somewhere.

I don't understand the equation at all, I wish I had taken physics in university. I'm more talking observable mass. Whether it's observable or not, if it has mass it would mean Einstein was wrong wouldn't it? Which would change our entire perception of matter, energy, and light speed travel.

$1:

Many massless particles especially the force carriers like Gravitons are thought to not pass through the Higgs Field in our four dimensions, but through one of the dimensions our universe must have 'curled up'. (yea, many people are looking at that and squinting now.)

That sounds string theory-esque. But it would make sense, if the Higgs is responsible for the mass of particles, and a particle has mass, then can it interact with the Higgs? And if it can't, it has to operate in a different dimension.

$1:

Gravity is thought to be similar, because it acts so much different then the other fundamental forces. For example, a simple magnet is able to counter the gravity of the entire planet, and hold a bit of paper to your fridge. The weak nuclear force between atoms are able to keep your coffee cup from slipping through the surface of your desk in that same gravity field.

But the Strong, weak and electromagnetic forces only act over very short distances. The sun is very far away, but it's gravity, and the gravity of the moon and even Jupiter and Saturn all have measurable effects on the Earth. Gravity acts very weakly, but over huge distances and we don't know why.

Yeah I remember reading about this as well. That the sun's gravity has been shown to affect objects well beyond our solar system into interstellar space. At least that we can measure. Been a while so I can't remember the prevailing theories. Maybe in the case of electromagnetism or the nuclear forces of the atom are under the operation of elementary particles with mass, so it doesn't have an infinite range. A massless particle has no limit to the range it can travel/affect something, albeit at a weaker rate, correct? Do we know if the effects of electromagnetism and nuclear forces work at light speed or not? I could google this I'm just too lazy.

This is also now my favourite thread.

Keep in mind I have about a grade 11 understanding of physics, so if I've said something stupid, cut me some slack.

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I look at that equation and think "I have work to do today, dammit! I can't be expanding those terms and enjoy the journey of exploration!" especially since I'm rusty at it, and would forget to carry a C somewhere.

I don't understand the equation at all, I wish I had taken physics in university. I'm more talking observable mass. Whether it's observable or not, if it has mass it would mean Einstein was wrong wouldn't it? Which would change our entire perception of matter, energy, and light speed travel.

It's a slightly different derivation of E=MC^2, which is a reduction of the terms in General Relativity. When you take the full equation for General Relativity and solve it for 'Energy' then you get E=MC^2. But if you stop before you get there, fidget with the terms, you get something like what Bart posted. I don't fully understand it, but I see where it comes from. That makes me want to do the math and see more!

Tricks Tricks:

$1:

Many massless particles especially the force carriers like Gravitons are thought to not pass through the Higgs Field in our four dimensions, but through one of the dimensions our universe must have 'curled up'. (yea, many people are looking at that and squinting now.)

That sounds string theory-esque. But it would make sense, if the Higgs is responsible for the mass of particles, and a particle has mass, then can it interact with the Higgs? And if it can't, it has to operate in a different dimension.

One of the concepts I'm trying to get my head around in the quantum world are 'fields'. The Higgs 'Field' is the realm where Mass derives from. It's all around us at a particular energy level. A particle has to travel through that 'field' in order to attain mass. The one particle that exists at that energy level is the Higgs Boson.

Like I said, work in progress.

Tricks Tricks:

$1:

Gravity is thought to be similar, because it acts so much different then the other fundamental forces. For example, a simple magnet is able to counter the gravity of the entire planet, and hold a bit of paper to your fridge. The weak nuclear force between atoms are able to keep your coffee cup from slipping through the surface of your desk in that same gravity field.I don't fully understand it, but I see where it comes from. That makes me want to do the math and see more!

But the Strong, weak and electromagnetic forces only act over very short distances. The sun is very far away, but it's gravity, and the gravity of the moon and even Jupiter and Saturn all have measurable effects on the Earth. Gravity acts very weakly, but over huge distances and we don't know why.

Yeah I remember reading about this as well. That the sun's gravity has been shown to affect objects well beyond our solar system into interstellar space. At least that we can measure. Been a while so I can't remember the prevailing theories. Maybe in the case of electromagnetism or the nuclear forces of the atom are under the operation of elementary particles with mass, so it doesn't have an infinite range. A massless particle has no limit to the range it can travel/affect something, albeit at a weaker rate, correct? Do we know if the effects of electromagnetism and nuclear forces work at light speed or not? I could google this I'm just too lazy.

Massless particles like WIMPS (Weakly interacting massive particles) like Gravitons, Nutrinos or Dark Matter are what you are thinking of. Yes, they barely interact with other matter, so they are not affected by other matter, they travel right through it. They have mass, so their affects can be detected, but they don't seem to do much else.

Tricks Tricks:

This is also now my favourite thread.

Keep in mind I have about a grade 11 understanding of physics, so if I've said something stupid, cut me some slack.

I live for this shit!

And I'll never berate someone for trying.

[peck420]

Is this the same as what Austria and China are about to test with QUESS?

And what was supposed to be tested by USA/Denmark/Singapore in 2014? (Rocket carrying satellite didn't make it)

[andyt]

to me, this explanation was a lot clearer.

$1:

For their demonstration, the U of C team used a specialized laser to create a pair of entangled photons — elementary particles of light — and sent one to Calgary City Hall via a dedicated fibre-optic line while keeping the other in their lab at the university in the city's northwest.

At the same time, a third photon was sent to city hall from another location (a data centre in the southeast community of Manchester) so that it would meet and interact with the entangled photon.

[PluggyRug]

This is my kind of science.

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

One of the concepts I'm trying to get my head around in the quantum world are 'fields'. The Higgs 'Field' is the realm where Mass derives from. It's all around us at a particular energy level. A particle has to travel through that 'field' in order to attain mass. The one particle that exists at that energy level is the Higgs Boson.

Like I said, work in progress.

Would quantum tunneling play a part? The field is the barrier it's transitioning through, unaffected by the field, and therefore no mass?

$1:

I live for this shit!

And I'll never berate someone for trying.

My knowledge stems from idiot proof documentaries, askscience reddit threads, and ELI5 reddit threads.

Basically I have slightly more knowledge than a 13 year old.

Edit but agreed, I love this shit. Every new Brian Cox documentary gets me so pumped to marathon it.

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

One of the concepts I'm trying to get my head around in the quantum world are 'fields'. The Higgs 'Field' is the realm where Mass derives from. It's all around us at a particular energy level. A particle has to travel through that 'field' in order to attain mass. The one particle that exists at that energy level is the Higgs Boson.

Like I said, work in progress.

Would quantum tunneling play a part? The field is the barrier it's transitioning through, unaffected by the field, and therefore no mass?

No, I'm not 100% sure, but quantum tunneling is a different concept than a WIMP. For scale, imagine an atom is the size of a grain of sand on a beach. The atom beside it is a grain of sand on a beach, on the other side of the planet. There is a lot of space in between.

Normally the weak nuclear force wouldn't allow any new atoms any closer, but with WIMPS it seems they don't give a shit. They will pass through that space, and no one is the wiser. We only detect them when they actually collide with another atom, and that atom gives off a photon because of the collision.

Tricks Tricks:

$1:

I live for this shit!

And I'll never berate someone for trying.

My knowledge stems from idiot proof documentaries, askscience reddit threads, and ELI5 reddit threads.

Basically I have slightly more knowledge than a 13 year old.

Edit but agreed, I love this shit. Every new Brian Cox documentary gets me so pumped to marathon it.

Yea, Brian Cox is cool, a real life 'Buckaroo Banzai'. But, look up Dr. Brian Green. He is an actual Quantum Physicist, and did a couple series on PBS NOVA that were pretty good.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fa ... osmos.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/el ... verse.html

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Would quantum tunneling play a part? The field is the barrier it's transitioning through, unaffected by the field, and therefore no mass?

No, I'm not 100% sure, but quantum tunneling is a different concept than a WIMP. For scale, imagine an atom is the size of a grain of sand on a beach. The atom beside it is a grain of sand on a beach, on the other side of the planet. There is a lot of space in between.

Normally the weak nuclear force wouldn't allow any new atoms any closer, but with WIMPS it seems they don't give a shit. They will pass through that space, and no one is the wiser. We only detect them when they actually collide with another atom, and that atom gives off a photon because of the collision.[/quote]So even though there are particles, we assume, passing between them in some way it doesn't get interfered with.

Tricks Tricks:

Yea, Brian Cox is cool, a real life 'Buckaroo Banzai'. But, look up Dr. Brian Green. He is an actual Quantum Physicist, and did a couple series on PBS NOVA that were pretty good.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fa ... osmos.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/el ... verse.html

Yeah! I've got a book from him on string theory. He's awesome.

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

So even though there are particles, we assume, passing between them in some way it doesn't get interfered with.

Correct. Nutrinos for example are a product of nuclear reactions. Both the Sun and nuclear power reactors produce them. They pass through us by the millions, every minute of every day. It was once speculated that they are the cause of 'Dark Matter', but there aren't enough of them to produce the effects we see.

It's also how we can detect nuclear tests and new nuclear plants, all the way through the Earth.