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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:48 am
 


herbie herbie:
The problem is Ukraine doesn't have those weapons. They can't afford to buy those weapons. No one is willing to simple give them those weapons, even if they did Ukraine doesn't have the personnel to use those weapons.


Ukraine was the USSR's center for weapons manufacture. They were the center for aviation (Antonov!). That was some of the first things Russia seized when they invaded Ukraine's eastern areas.

And right now, Canada is advising Ukraine on their weapons manufacturing and how to build and secure them in the event of Russian invasion.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... ith-russia


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:50 am
 


CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Even that Russian troll who used to post nonsense gave up on Comrade Putin.


I honestly can't remember his name now, but was this the self-proclaimed Communist that changed his username several times? I'm struggling to remember this person right now...

-J.


Easy to remember . . Tom Ass [angel]

He may have different accounts, that he shares in his Russian sweat shop.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:08 pm
 




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:10 pm
 


Thanos Thanos:
I like being told how "awesome" Russian equipment is by people whose only knowledge of the subject comes from video games. This allows them to conveniently ignore the basic reality that whenever Russian hardware goes up against the West, everywhere from the Korean War through to Iraq 2003, it's been reduced to shredded metal & dead operators. Yeah, they would certainly be tougher on their home turf. But their weaponry is only successful as the leading edge of a conquest in place where the US & NATO have already ceded the ground to them. Other than that it's literally shooting fish in a barrel, and these days Russia simply can't afford the cost of massive quantity to overcome their generally lousy quality, the way they could in World War Two and in the Cold War.

Not cheering for a war here. Just saying that there's probably been several generations of US & British strategists & field officers who licked their lips in anticipation of duking it out in a straight-up fistfight with the Russians, just to see what would happen. Pretty certain if the Fulda Gap apocalypse ever happened then the results for the Russians would be identical to what happened to their incredibly unlucky equipment-users in the Sinai, in the Golan Heights, and in both Iraq wars. Shit, Afghanistan is still strewn from end-to-end with the blown-out ruins of rusting tanks, copters, and fighter planes that got annihilated just from what the original mujahadeen managed to do to the Soviets using shoulder-fired RPGs and surface-to-air missiles. Flood Ukraine and the Baltics with the exact same kind of weaponry, supplemented by the pure-murder machine of US helicopters and A10 Warthogs running amok, and the same goddamn thing would probably happen all over again.


Russian/Soviet hardware is definitely a step below cutting edge Western gear, the problem is that Ukraine does not have cutting edge Western gear, they have a lot of old Soviet gear. Another problem is that Russia has more of it and more troops to use it, and some of the Russian gear is more advanced than what the Ukrainians have.

Russian gear may be subpar, but it still seems more advanced than Chinese gear, which despite a few successes, still lags far behind the US and Europe.



herbie herbie:
The problem is Ukraine doesn't have those weapons. They can't afford to buy those weapons. No one is willing to simple give them those weapons, even if they did Ukraine doesn't have the personnel to use those weapons.
The only access to those weapons and training is to join NATO.

And Russia's well aware of everything you pointed out, which is why they don't want those NATO weapons on their border.
The central point of the whole issue.

Asides from the fact Putin, just like the U.S.A. can't/won't solve the issues at home and has to continue distracting the populace with the threat of the bogeyman about to invade.


Well, the US did authorize the sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine, and Britain was in talks late last year to provide them with Brimstone surface-to-surface missiles, but nothing has been announced on that yet.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -7fmdddsmk

Additionally as DrC noted, Ukraine already has a robust defence manufacturing capability, which is in the Top 15 worldwide in arms sales.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/2 ... arms-sales

I think the key thing lacking is money to buy the advanced components to build them, as well as the corruption that is endemic in so many countries, Ukraine included.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:10 pm
 


We also have to be careful to not get bamboozled by any talk of "innocent & helpless Ukraine" from any of the usual Forever War suspects inside American think-tanks. The Russians are definitely not innocent and in countless ways certainly deserve some kind of ass-whipping. But there's a bad streak of corruption running in the Ukrainian government and business community. Even worse is that modern Ukrainian nationalism is spear-headed by a lot of really bad actors who are so far to the right, and both extremely anti-Russian and anti-Semetic as well, that they might as well be active Nazis. This is a really dangerous thing that's erupted in Eastern Europe that the West should take no part in. It's already embarrassing enough to be associated with hard-right pseudo-democratic governments in Hungary, Poland, and Turkey sitting at the NATO table. Going to bat for the one in Ukraine, where all you have to do is to swing a dead cat to hit someone who is insanely proud of how their grand-dad enthusiastically helped the Third Reich wipe out the local Jewish population from 1941 to 1945, would be quite shameful for us to do.

If there's one thing that has to be gotten rid of it's this belief that there were a lot of innocents in Eastern Europe when it was ruled by the Soviets during the Cold War. In reality the only ones who didn't deserve to have the Russians as an overlord dominating them after World War Two were the Czechs. And the Poles as well, but only to a limited extent given that both before and after the war anti-Semetism among the Poles frequently flared up in the form of murderous pogroms of their own. The Baltics, Hungarians, Romanians, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Croatians, and Bosnians were all basically "fuck yeah!" when the Nazis went to sign them up as allies & accomplices in the mass-murders that were being perpetrated. Far too many Eastern Europeans were thoroughly willing participants in both the Holocaust and in sending troops to fight side-by-side with the Nazis inside Russia. More often than not on the Eastern Front, Hitler's Eastern European auxiliaries were just as enthusiastic at tormenting their ancient enemies as the Germans were. It's a real messy web of eternal hatreds over their, just as terrible as the ones in the old Yugoslavia, and siding with one group over another is outright foolish & thoroughly ignorant in any historical context. Assuming any of those old hatreds still aren't in play today would be very unwise to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:40 pm
 


Scape Scape:


Excellent!

:rock: PDT_Armataz_01_06 :rock:

-J.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:44 pm
 


An article by the Defence Secretary on the situation in Ukraine

I have lost count of how many times recently I have to had to explain the meaning of the English term “straw man” to my European allies. That is because the best living, breathing “straw man” at the moment is the Kremlin’s claim to be under threat from NATO. In recent weeks the Russian Defence Minister’s comment that the US is “preparing a provocation with chemical components in eastern Ukraine” has made that “straw man” even bigger.

It is obviously the Kremlin’s desire that we all engage with this bogus allegation, instead of challenging the real agenda of the President of the Russian Federation. An examination of the facts rapidly puts a match to the allegations against NATO.

First, NATO is, to its core, defensive in nature. At the heart of the organisation is Article 5 that obliges all members to come to the aid of a fellow member if it is under attack. No ifs and no buts. Mutual self-defence is NATO’s cornerstone. This obligation protects us all. Allies from as far apart as Turkey and Norway; or as close as Latvia and Poland all benefit from the pact and are obliged to respond. It is a truly defensive alliance.

Second, former Soviet states have not been expanded ‘into’ by NATO, but joined at their own request. The Kremlin attempts to present NATO as a Western plot to encroach upon its territory, but in reality the growth in Alliance membership is the natural response of those states to its own malign activities and threats.

Third, the allegation that NATO is seeking to encircle the Russian Federation is without foundation. Only five of the thirty allies neighbour Russia, with just 1/16th of its borders abutted by NATO. If the definition of being surrounded is 6% of your perimeter being blocked then no doubt the brave men who fought at Arnhem or Leningrad in the Second World War would have something strong to say about it.

It is not the disposition of NATO forces but the appeal of its values that actually threatens the Kremlin. Just as we know that its actions are really about what President Putin’s interpretation of history is and his unfinished ambitions for Ukraine.

We know that because last summer he published, via the official Government website, his own article “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. I urge you to read it, if you have time, because while it is comprehensive on his arguments it is short on accuracy and long on contradictions.

We should all worry because what flows from the pen of President Putin himself is a seven-thousand-word essay that puts ethnonationalism at the heart of his ambitions. Not the narrative now being peddled. Not the straw man of NATO encroachment. It provides the skewed and selective reasoning to justify, at best, the subjugation of Ukraine and at worse the forced unification of that sovereign country.

President Putin’s article completely ignores the wishes of the citizens of Ukraine, while evoking that same type of ethnonationalism which played out across Europe for centuries and still has the potential to awaken the same destructive forces of ancient hatred. Readers will not only be shocked at the tone of the article but they will also be surprised at how little NATO is mentioned. After all, is NATO ‘expansionism’ not the fountain of all the Kremlin’s concerns? In fact, just a single paragraph is devoted to NATO.

The essay makes in it three claims. One: that the West seeks to use division to “rule” Russia. Two: that anything other than a single nation of Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia (Velikorussians, Malorussians, Belorussians) in the image advanced in the 17th Century is an artificial construct and defies the desires of a single people, with a single language and church. Third, that anyone who disagrees does so out of a hatred or phobia of Russia.

We can dispense with the first allegation. No one wants to rule Russia. It is stating the obvious that just like any other state it is for the citizens of a country to determine their own future. Russia’s own lessons from such conflicts as Chechnya must surely be that ethnic and sectarian conflicts cost thousands of innocent lives with the protagonists getting bogged down in decades of strife.

As for Ukraine, Russia itself recognised the sovereignty of it as an independent country and guaranteed its territorial integrity, not just by signing the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 but also its Friendship Treaty with Ukraine itself in 1997. Yet it is the Kremlin not the West that set about magnifying divisions in that country and several others in the Europe. It has been well documented the numerous efforts of the GRU and other Russian agencies to interfere in democratic elections and domestic disputes is well documented. The divide and rule cap sits prettiest on Moscow’s head not NATO’s.

Probably the most important and strongly believed claim that Ukraine is Russia and Russia is Ukraine is not quite as presented. Ukraine has been separate from Russia for far longer in its history than it was ever united. Secondly the charge that all peoples in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are descendants of the ‘Ancient Rus’ and are therefore somehow all Russians. But in reality, according to historian Professor Andrew Wilson in his excellent essay for RUSI entitled “Russia and Ukraine: ‘One People’ as Putin Claims?” they are at best “kin but not the same people”. In the same way Britain around 900AD consisted of Mercia, Wessex, York, Strathclyde and other pre-modern kingdoms, but it was a civic nation of many peoples, origins and ethnicities that eventually formed the United Kingdom.

If you start and stop your view of Russian history between 1654 and 1917 then you can fabricate a case for a more expansive Russia, perhaps along the lines of the motto of the Russian Tsar before the Russian Empire “Sovereign of all of Rus: the Great, the Little, and the White” – Russia, Ukraine and Belarus respectively. And crucially you must also forget the before and after in history. You must ignore the existence of the Soviet Union, breaking of the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, and the occupation of Crimea. Far more than footnotes in history, I am sure you will agree.

Ironically, President Putin himself admits in his essay that “things change: countries and communities are no exception. Of course, some part of a people in the process of its development, influenced by a number of reasons and historical circumstances, can become aware of itself as a separate nation at a certain moment. How should we treat that? There is only one answer: with respect!” However, he then goes on to discard some of those “historical circumstances” to fit his own claims.

Dubious to say the least, and not in anyway a perspective that justifies both the occupation of Crimea (in the same way Russia occupied Crimea in 1783 in defiance of the Russo-Turkish Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji in 1774) or any further invasion of modern Ukraine, as an independent sovereign country.

The last charge against the West by many in the Russian Government is that those who disagree with the Kremlin are somehow Russophobes. Leaving aside that GRU officers deployed nerve agents on British streets or that cyber hacking and targeted assassinations emanate from the Russian state, nothing could be further than the truth.

Russia and the UK share a deep and often mutually beneficial history. Our allegiances helped to finally defeat Napoleon and later Hitler. Outside of conflict, across the centuries we shared technology, medicine and culture. During the 18th Century Russia and Britain were deeply tied. Between 1704 to 1854, from age of Peter the Great through Catherine the Great and well into the 19th Century the British were to be found as admirals, generals, surgeons, and architects at the highest level of the Russian Court. The father of the Russian Navy – one Samuel Greig – was born in Inverkeithing in Fife.

That shared admiration is still true today. The British Government is not in dispute with Russia and the Russian people – far from it – but it does take issue with the malign activity of the Kremlin.

So, if one cold January or February night Russian Military forces once more cross into sovereign Ukraine, ignore the ‘straw man’ narratives and ‘false flag’ stories of NATO aggression and remember the President of Russia’s own words in that essay from last summer. Remember it and ask yourself what it means, not just for Ukraine, but for all of us in Europe. What it means the next time…

-UK Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:46 pm
 


It's time we prepare for WAR!


-J.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:54 pm
 


CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
It's time we prepare for WAR!


-J.

This is even worse than stupid, it's moronic. But if you insist, you first.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:58 pm
 


I don’t like Ukraine’s government or Poland’s or Hungary’s but I would find the prospect of Russia invading any of them (or in Ukraine’s case, invading it yet again) outrageous. Regarding anti-semitism, nobody in Eastern Europe is perfect. Ukraine does have a Jewish president and for a while in 2019 it also had a Jewish prime minister, the second in the country’s short history.

That statement by UK minister Ben Wallace takes the biscuit. Now is not the time to bring up the Napoleonic wars and more of the Brexit mentality. Today, like too many in Europe, the UK is still trying to do business with Putin and his oligarchs as he threatens the continent.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:37 pm
 


CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
It's time we prepare for WAR!


-J.


I don't think that's happening anytime soon.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:42 pm
 


Have Russia join NATO and have the Chinese occupy Ukraine. I think that will piss everyone off right?


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