[Newsbot]

Title: Shooting reported at Paris magazine Charlie Hebdo
Category: World
Posted By: martin14
Date: 2015-01-07 03:33:41

[martin14]

10 dead, the shooters took off into the streets.

They may have an RPG with them.

This magazine reprinted the Danish cartoons several years ago.


Of course, Islam has nothing to do with this.

$1:

"Several men in black cagoules were heard to shout 'the Prophet has been avenged'", wrote Pierre de Cossette, a broadcast journalist with Europe1 News.

This proves it.

[stratos]

Death toll rising 10 ppl from the news paper are dead and now 2 French police officers are dead.

[Jabberwalker]

Twelve now dead and counting.

Religion of peace ...

[stratos]

I'm already hearing spin on this trying to marginalize the relationship to Islam. Some talking head saying something along the lines of "look we have reached out and talked with moderate Imams and encourage them to let the world know things like this is not part of their religion of peace."

This is not even 6hrs old and already apologists and others are trying to tell us this is an isolated incident.

[martin14]

stratos stratos:

Death toll rising 10 ppl from the news paper are dead and now 2 French police officers are dead.

One of the cops was wounded in the street, then shot in the head.

Looks like the shooters got away.

[stratos]

martin14 martin14:

stratos stratos:

Death toll rising 10 ppl from the news paper are dead and now 2 French police officers are dead.

One of the cops was wounded in the street, then shot in the head.

Looks like the shooters got away.

I've seen video of 2 guys getting in a car and driving off. Is there reports of more then 2 gunmen? Where any attackers killed/captured at the scene? I can only catch bits of the reporting do to work.

[Praxius]

Meh, I'm not excusing any of their actions by any means, but seriously, is anybody surprised?

A + B = C

A - Post images of a religious figure head which everybody knows greatly offends those who follow said religion.

B - The extremists and most moderates express their outrage and all extremists of said religion threaten to take violent action against those who offended them... Yet those who did continue to do so anyways.

C - The extremists take Violent Action.

*slaps cheek in surprise*

Wow didn't expect that.

Now again, I am not defending these extremist turd nuggets for their actions, nor am I going to say these guys who posted the images shouldn't express their freedom of expression, but I am also not going to shed sympathy over the whole matter for either side.

Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression does not equate to freedom of consequence... More importantly, while one can only hope, the reality is that you can not blindly expect people to leave you alone based on your opinions, actions or expressions.

Why?

Because many people in the world are small minded idiots who don't understand how to deal with a problem without resorting to violence. When you know who these people are and know very well they react with physical violence when provoked... And you provoke them anyways again and again, you have your own special role in creating the problem in the first place.

Now when I said freedom of speech/expression doesn't equate to freedom from consequence, the consequences vary. I can express my opinion and views and while I can do that publicly, I can have the consequence of others no longer wanting to deal with me. If I go to a privately run business and freely express my opinion that the owner is a complete tool and throw out all kinds of insults and offenses, would I not face the possible consequence of that business/owner refusing to provide me with their services?

When we express ourselves we face consequences for our actions every single time. It can range widely with consequences, from someone no longer liking you or wanting to deal with you, to possible jail time depending on the situation.

While we call it Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression, let us get down to the bare facts:

There was never such a thing as absolute freedom of speech or expression. Look up the laws, even the original laws when these so-called freedoms were created and you will see that there have always been certain limitations and restrictions.

Now in saying all of that, doing what these guys did to PO the Muslim Extremists equates to punching a wild animal in the forest.... Or walking up to some Mexican Drug Cartel and telling him you're going to call the cops on him.

In a perfect world, you may not have to worry about any danger to your life and the police & rule of law will protect you, but we all know that many others do not give two craps about the law and our rights and will take matters into their own hands.

You may think you should have the right to walk down your neighborhood streets and not have to worry about being robbed, sexually assaulted, attacked or hit by a drunk driver.... And you do.

But again, not everybody respects the law & your rights and when it all comes down the line, your protection eventually ends up in your hands and thus, you need to think before you act.

Religion of Peace some say?

I've heard that before as a mockery in other forums, and this phrase always brings me back to the same question:

What Religious Faith in this world IS A RELIGION OF PEACE??

As far as I am aware, none of them. They're all equally destructive to the world and all have had their fair share of brutality in some form or another, some worse than others.

I could go on, but I think that's enough for people to rant on about for now. I'll save the rest for later.

[martin14]

stratos stratos:

This is not even 6hrs old and already apologists and others are trying to tell us this is an isolated incident.

And the apologists are even in this thread.

[stratos]

$1:

Now again, I am not defending these extremist turd nuggets for their actions, nor am I going to say these guys who posted the images shouldn't express their freedom of expression, but I am also not going to shed sympathy over the whole matter for either side.

Yet everything you write after this appears to say that the people who were killed got what they deserved as a consequence of their employment at the publication that wrote and or published things offensive to Muslims.

$1:

Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression does not equate to freedom of consequence... More importantly, while one can only hope, the reality is that you can not blindly expect people to leave you alone based on your opinions, actions or expressions.

True, but death for something you say or write is not a valid response, you seem to be saying that their deaths then is their own fault and not those of the gunmen. That the gunmen were doing exactly what they should have done because they were offended by something in print. If it is ok for such actions to be the consequence of something written upsetting others then you have effectively stifled any and all expression of thought do to the possibility of upsetting someone else.

[Praxius]

martin14 martin14:

stratos stratos:

This is not even 6hrs old and already apologists and others are trying to tell us this is an isolated incident.

And the apologists are even in this thread.

Interesting. I didn't see any.

You can guess where I am leading this, but I'll save you the time:

• You try and hint that I am an apologist without directly saying in your previous post.

• I then tell you that you obviously didn't read anything in my post beyond what you wanted to hear and that you simply think I am an apologist because I didn't suck the corn from the turds of blind pitchfork wavers.

• You then make a snide comment back trying to sound smart as though my position wasn't worth debating in a mature manner because I got that little NDP icon stuck near my avatar and therefore a straight shooting far-sided leftie Liberal yahoo.

• To which I reply in further detail that I only vote for whatever political party or position that sounds the most logical at the time and that I do not adhere to a simplistic position of having to be Lefty or Righty or whatever.

• Due to your position and view, the above doesn't make any sense unless I'm some lefty loonie because I'm either Conservative/Righty or I'm a Liberal/Lefty... I'm either with you guys with the pitchforks or I'm with the T'rrists. A typical black and white mentality with the inability to understand that some people live in the grey most times.

• I then explain that I'm a person who looks at all angles and all positions and hold little sympathy for stupidity, which is why I held no real emotional fakery in here over this shooting. I then explain that I hope these gunmen, Muslims or whoever they are, are found and get royally fk'd up over their actions.... At the very least, caught and Brough to justice.

• You again ignore the main point and focus again on how I am not sobbing in a corner somewhere over the shooting, filled with ignorance and fear, raising my fist in the air and shouting that all the evil Muslims should be wiped out and now is the time to take action.... Yet expect everybody else to take action because I haven't the balls to put my money where my mouth is like so many I see on internet forums beating their imaginary war drums.

• I then comment that we both have gone off topic for a bit too far now.

-------------

Now with that out of the way, Let's move onto the next reply.....

[stratos]

$1:

I then explain that I hope these gunmen, Muslims or whoever they are, are found and get royally fk'd up over their actions.... At the very least, caught and Brough to justice

Please point out where you say this because now where can I find it in your previous post:

$1:

Meh, I'm not excusing any of their actions by any means, but seriously, is anybody surprised?

A + B = C

A - Post images of a religious figure head which everybody knows greatly offends those who follow said religion.

B - The extremists and most moderates express their outrage and all extremists of said religion threaten to take violent action against those who offended them... Yet those who did continue to do so anyways.

C - The extremists take Violent Action.

*slaps cheek in surprise*

Wow didn't expect that.

Now again, I am not defending these extremist turd nuggets for their actions, nor am I going to say these guys who posted the images shouldn't express their freedom of expression, but I am also not going to shed sympathy over the whole matter for either side.

Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression does not equate to freedom of consequence... More importantly, while one can only hope, the reality is that you can not blindly expect people to leave you alone based on your opinions, actions or expressions.

Why?

Because many people in the world are small minded idiots who don't understand how to deal with a problem without resorting to violence. When you know who these people are and know very well they react with physical violence when provoked... And you provoke them anyways again and again, you have your own special role in creating the problem in the first place.

Now when I said freedom of speech/expression doesn't equate to freedom from consequence, the consequences vary. I can express my opinion and views and while I can do that publicly, I can have the consequence of others no longer wanting to deal with me. If I go to a privately run business and freely express my opinion that the owner is a complete tool and throw out all kinds of insults and offenses, would I not face the possible consequence of that business/owner refusing to provide me with their services?

When we express ourselves we face consequences for our actions every single time. It can range widely with consequences, from someone no longer liking you or wanting to deal with you, to possible jail time depending on the situation.

While we call it Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression, let us get down to the bare facts:

There was never such a thing as absolute freedom of speech or expression. Look up the laws, even the original laws when these so-called freedoms were created and you will see that there have always been certain limitations and restrictions.

Now in saying all of that, doing what these guys did to PO the Muslim Extremists equates to punching a wild animal in the forest.... Or walking up to some Mexican Drug Cartel and telling him you're going to call the cops on him.

In a perfect world, you may not have to worry about any danger to your life and the police & rule of law will protect you, but we all know that many others do not give two craps about the law and our rights and will take matters into their own hands.

You may think you should have the right to walk down your neighborhood streets and not have to worry about being robbed, sexually assaulted, attacked or hit by a drunk driver.... And you do.

But again, not everybody respects the law & your rights and when it all comes down the line, your protection eventually ends up in your hands and thus, you need to think before you act.

Religion of Peace some say?

I've heard that before as a mockery in other forums, and this phrase always brings me back to the same question:

What Religious Faith in this world IS A RELIGION OF PEACE??

As far as I am aware, none of them. They're all equally destructive to the world and all have had their fair share of brutality in some form or another, some worse than others.

I could go on, but I think that's enough for people to rant on about for now. I'll save the rest for later.

[Praxius]

stratos stratos:

$1:

Now again, I am not defending these extremist turd nuggets for their actions, nor am I going to say these guys who posted the images shouldn't express their freedom of expression, but I am also not going to shed sympathy over the whole matter for either side.

Yet everything you write after this appears to say that the people who were killed got what they deserved as a consequence of their employment at the publication that wrote and or published things offensive to Muslims.

"Appears" yet I never said that did I?

I say what I mean without dancing around.

I never said they deserved it, I said I am in no way shocked and surprised that this happened.

Innocent employees who had nothing to do with those publications of those cartoons are indeed innocent. What was stupid about the whole thing was with the employers who approved this all happening in the first place whom with any common sense would have known the risks they were putting their employees in.

I am not someone who jumps at the chance at stifling opinions, art or expression. I'm a graphic designer by profession.... But if I was the owner of a company/business with employees, the safety and well being of my workers takes priority over me wanting to make some political statement or stunt to gain some attention.

If I wanted to do that, I would do it on my own time.

$1:

$1:

Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression does not equate to freedom of consequence... More importantly, while one can only hope, the reality is that you can not blindly expect people to leave you alone based on your opinions, actions or expressions.

True, but death for something you say or write is not a valid response, you seem to be saying that their deaths then is their own fault and not those of the gunmen. That the gunmen were doing exactly what they should have done because they were offended by something in print. If it is ok for such actions to be the consequence of something written upsetting others then you have effectively stifled any and all expression of thought do to the possibility of upsetting someone else.

Which is 100% not what I was saying or leading to. I did not justify the actions of the gunmen. I did not justify, excuse or trivialize what they did and I sure as heck didn't say they had every right to shoot a bunch of people.

I said that I understand the nature of the beast and these extremist crack pot Muslims don't give a crap about our rights, nor do they care about our laws, which is clearly obvious based on what just happened. I was explaining that I knew this was going to happen long before it did and I am not surprised in the slightest.

The thing I don't get is the half-assed "statement" being made by posting these cartoons in the first place. To defend our freedoms and rights? People do this every day.

To make something we can all rally behind?

They're cartoons from some comedy newspaper.... I could think of more important things to rally by. They weren't even that funny if I was being objective.

Was all of this to simply show how blood thirsty, backwards, and silly these extremist Muslims are due to getting so angry and violent over a couple of cartoons??

If that's the case, it was certainly a high price for these people to pay for such a stunt.... But hey, at least the point has been made right?

stratos stratos:

$1:

I then explain that I hope these gunmen, Muslims or whoever they are, are found and get royally fk'd up over their actions.... At the very least, caught and Brough to justice

Please point out where you say this because now where can I find it in your previous post:

That's because it wasn't in my previous post, but part of my future-predictive post in which has yet to happen.

The thing is, I shouldn't have to state that. I would imagine the greater majority of people in here would share the same mentality and would have been a given.

I certainly would not be cheering these people on and hoping they never get caught.

[martin14]

stratos stratos:

I've seen video of 2 guys getting in a car and driving off. Is there reports of more then 2 gunmen? Where any attackers killed/captured at the scene? I can only catch bits of the reporting do to work.

The car was found abandoned a short time later, only 2 shooters but armed to the teeth.

I wouldn't waste my time with the returning troll.

[DrCaleb]

Praxius Praxius:

Now again, I am not defending these extremist turd nuggets for their actions, nor am I going to say these guys who posted the images shouldn't express their freedom of expression, but I am also not going to shed sympathy over the whole matter for either side.

Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression does not equate to freedom of consequence... More importantly, while one can only hope, the reality is that you can not blindly expect people to leave you alone based on your opinions, actions or expressions.

Really? So exercising freedom of expression, freedom of the press has the logical consequence of Death by Firing Squad?

That is not acceptable in civilized society. Speech should never be countered by violence, only by speech.