[bootlegga]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

On the gun control topic: didn't see anyone post it here yet, but does anyone doubt that looser gun laws would have meant higher casualties? The guy had one of those old breech-loaded (i.e. no magazine), lever-action cowboy rifles that holds at most 8 shots (usually 7). Since he fired 3 at the memorial, he stormed parliament with at most 5 bullets and it would have taken him about 1 minute to reload.

$1:

Low-tech weapon probably limited Zehaf-Bibeau’s damage

Tu Thanh Ha

The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Oct. 24 2014, 7:38 PM EDT

Last updated Friday, Oct. 24 2014, 10:20 PM EDT


When Michael Zehaf-Bibeau ran into the halls of Parliament’s Centre Block and got into a shootout with guards, officers and the House of Commons sergeant-at-arms, the 32-year-old was wielding an outmoded hunting rifle designed in 1894.

Because of his lengthy criminal record, Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau was barred from owning firearms. The gun he secured for his attack Wednesday is a common hunting rifle with modest power and magazine capacity that required him to pull a lever to load before each shot – and presumably limited his capacity to wreak havoc in the halls of Parliament.

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How Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau obtained the Winchester is now the primary focus of the police investigation, RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson told reporters Thursday.

“The source of that gun is of tremendous interest to us. He was prohibited criminally from possessing firearms and we will determine where that gun came from,” Mr. Paulson said.

He said the gun was a 30-30 Winchester lever-action rifle, a model similar to the iconic gun seen in many Western movies. It is not known whether Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau obtained it on the black market, through an accomplice or via theft. Gun owners are supposed to notify the authorities if their firearms are stolen.

“Although it can be used as a weapon, it’s hardly the firearm of choice,” said Keith Cunningham, a retired army officer who is now a certified shooting coach. “I don’t know why he eventually chose this rifle … you can get any firearm you want on the black market. I would have thought his weapon of choice would have been the AK” – meaning the AK-47 assault rifle – “so I doubt he’s had any kind of training or experience with a firearm.”

The Winchester is commonly used for deer hunting, but many hunters today prefer more powerful firearms that can accommodate shooting scopes, said Jeannot Ruel, editorial adviser for the hunting and fishing magazine Sentier Chasse et Pêche. “It’s ancient. It’s not the most performing weapon you could find.”

A hunter using this rifle would have to get closer to the game, he said, as the 30-30 cartridge is of modest power.

A light, relatively compact weapon, the Winchester can hold up to eight rounds – seven in the magazine and another in the chamber. It has to be loaded one cartridge at a time, from a port on the right side of the chamber.

The RCMP said Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau approached his first targets, two members of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders regiment, as they faced away. The soldiers’ rifles wouldn’t have been loaded because they were on ceremonial guard duty at the National War Memorial.

Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau fired two shots at Corporal Nathan Cirillo, fatally wounding the 24-year-old reservist. He fired another shot at the second guard – he missed – before running away.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e21305403/

In fairness, the weapon doesn't have a removable magazine - it has an internal magazine (as the article notes).

I do agree that our gun control laws actually worked well in this instance, as they prevented him from acquiring far deadlier weapons than he might have south of the border.

Still, the weapon he used would have been capable of doing much more damage in the hands of a trained person and our nation is fortunate that he was a crack addict and general layabout who apparently had little formal knowledge/training with firearms.

[andyt]

How did the gun laws prevent him getting his hands on a deadlier weapon? He apparently stole this rifle from his aunt. If she had owned a semi-auto, assault type weapon, just as legal as the Winchester, he would have stolen that. If he then had access to multiple magazines, he could have fired 8 shots at the soldiers, likely killing both, then quickly reloaded and moved on to Parliament with a full mag. So no, the gun laws didn't work. Just lucky he stole from a gun owner who didn't seem to feel the need to look like he's going into combat when he goes hunting.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

How did the gun laws prevent him getting his hands on a deadlier weapon? He apparently stole this rifle from his aunt. If she had owned a semi-auto, assault type weapon, just as legal as the Winchester, he would have stolen that. If he then had access to multiple magazines, he could have fired 8 shots at the soldiers, likely killing both, then quickly reloaded and moved on to Parliament with a full mag. So no, the gun laws didn't work. Just lucky he stole from a gun owner who didn't seem to feel the need to look like he's going into combat when he goes hunting.

Where to begin . . .

Let see, rifles in Canada are already restricted to 5 shots in a magazine.

What is an 'assault style' weapon? Is that like a 'military assault style' vehicle?

And 'Restricted' weapons cannot be used for hunting.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

How did the gun laws prevent him getting his hands on a deadlier weapon? He apparently stole this rifle from his aunt. If she had owned a semi-auto, assault type weapon, just as legal as the Winchester, he would have stolen that. If he then had access to multiple magazines, he could have fired 8 shots at the soldiers, likely killing both, then quickly reloaded and moved on to Parliament with a full mag. So no, the gun laws didn't work. Just lucky he stole from a gun owner who didn't seem to feel the need to look like he's going into combat when he goes hunting.

Sure they did.

Because he lived here and not in the US, his Aunt didn't own a AR-15 and stacks of 30 round magazines (like Adam Lanza's mother did). Even if she had had an AR-15, the magazines would have been limited to 5 round capacity. Of course someone who was knowledgable about firearms may have been able to change the magazine capacity, but as I noted, he didn't have that knowledge/training.

[andyt]

Ok 5 shots, that as you say would be more effective because he doesn't have to take his eye off the target. Then slap in another mag and go after parliament.

YOu want to get hung up on assault weapon definitions, you're just taking refuge in weenieism the way the gun nuts to. There are rifles out there that are just as legal as the Winchester, but far more effective for what he was doing. Those are the rifles I'm talking about.

Restricted weapons can't be used for hunting, so what? You yourself called the lever action Winchester the perfect hunting weapon. So restricting all semi-auto rifles the way the AR 15 is, wouldn't then be much of a problem for hunters, while making those weapons less readily available to be stolen for the criminal market.

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Of course someone who was knowledgable about firearms may have been able to change the magazine capacity, but as I noted, he didn't have that knowledge/training.

It's not possible. In addition to being restricted to 5 rounds, modifying the magazine beyond that capacity will render the magazine useless. That's part of the design requirements for magazines in Canada.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

Ok 5 shots, that as you say would be more effective because he doesn't have to take his eye off the target. Then slap in another mag and go after parliament.

YOu want to get hung up on assault weapon definitions, you're just taking refuge in weenieism the way the gun nuts to. There are rifles out there that are just as legal as the Winchester, but far more effective for what he was doing. Those are the rifles I'm talking about.

Restricted weapons can't be used for hunting, so what? You yourself called the lever action Winchester the perfect hunting weapon. So restricting all semi-auto rifles the way the AR 15 is, wouldn't then be much of a problem for hunters, while making those weapons less readily available to be stolen for the criminal market.

Really? Name calling?

As I asked in the other thread, how would restricting these weapons prevent them from being stolen, when stealing is already illegal? How could this person be further restricted from owning firearms? I've always said I'm all about making people safer, but I'm not going to accept restrictions on my legal activities that do not also make people safer.

And, I called it 'near perfect'.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Of course someone who was knowledgable about firearms may have been able to change the magazine capacity, but as I noted, he didn't have that knowledge/training.

It's not possible. In addition to being restricted to 5 rounds, modifying the magazine beyond that capacity will render the magazine useless. That's part of the design requirements for magazines in Canada.

Fair enough, my statement was based on comments I've read here that a magazine is just a box with a spring in it and it can be adapted. I'm not a gun smith nor good enough with tools to even consider trying it myself.

Push comes to shove, there is always that guy in Texas making 30 round magazines with a 3D printer.

Still, it's good to know that it isn't possible to alter 5 round magazines here in Canada.

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Of course someone who was knowledgable about firearms may have been able to change the magazine capacity, but as I noted, he didn't have that knowledge/training.

It's not possible. In addition to being restricted to 5 rounds, modifying the magazine beyond that capacity will render the magazine useless. That's part of the design requirements for magazines in Canada.

Fair enough, my statement was based on comments I've read here that a magazine is just a box with a spring in it and it can be adapted. I'm not a gun smith nor good enough with tools to even consider trying it myself.

Push comes to shove, there is always that guy in Texas making 30 round magazines with a 3D printer.

Still, it's good to know that it isn't possible to alter 5 round magazines here in Canada.

It is just a box with a spring in it. But there is a pin that holds the box together and limits it to 5 rounds. Remove the pin, the box falls apart.

And getting higher capacity mags in the US has always been the loophole. Now that you can make your own, there are no more limits effectively.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Still, it's good to know that it isn't possible to alter 5 round magazines here in Canada.

And why bother when there's enterprising people in the US who are willing to get you whatever you need in terms of machine parts.

FYI: The barrel of a .50 cal rifle makes for an awesome lampstand and I'd be happy to work with you on getting one of these very functional light fixtures sent to you.

[DrCaleb]

[Regina]

Just need the CSA sticker for that one.

[BartSimpson]

Regina Regina:

Just need the CSA sticker for that one.

Yep. A bunch of crazy right-wing, racist bastards at the CSA....

http://shop.csa.ca/en/canada/page/home