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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:23 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Fighter wrote:
llama66 wrote:
Unless someone disparages the prophet. If I even tried draw the prophet in Pakistan (or any other Muslim majority nation) I could be jailed--or worse. People have died trying to do just that...


Yes...It is extremely way way sensitive matter so much that people in Europe have started to realize it.

Only its not. Its a drawing. If I'm forced to adhere to parts of your beliefs, then its only fair you observe christian beliefs; Like communion or confession or something.

The world does not end if someone draws the prophet. I mean people have been drawing Jesus (the alleged son of god) and god himself for over 2000 years. Do you mean to tell me that drawing God is fine, but drawing a (comparatively) lowly prophet is uber-taboo? That's bass-ackward.

I'm not trying to be a dick or disparage you, I'm trying to point out there is some Hypocrisy in play here.


I think Muslims will react the same if drawing of Allah (God) is being made by anyone just like when they react when drawing of any Prophet is being made.

What my point is there is a clear provocation on part of some people. If they want to draw such desperately then they can draw whatever they want in isolation - alone but why the fuck do they do it openly? Why need to announce it in media and go open and tell Muslims about it? To provoke them?

This such things are done deliberately to provoke Muslims.

Hindus also react when someone disrespect their religion/book.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-16344615

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-16260767

For some its just drawing but for some it's great deal because people are closely attached with.

Human world. Complex and yet simple :)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:25 am
 


Why? Why get upset? God forgives, if he doesn't, he's not god, is he?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 am
 


Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:29 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.

I'd rep you if I could. Want world peace? End religion.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:37 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Why? Why get upset? God forgives, if he doesn't, he's not god, is he?


You are right. God forgives. Many Pakistanis also say that and they are right but don't you think if we do all awkward/offensive/sins things while thinking God will forgive us, is some kinda trolling God?

I am not in favor taking unfair advantage of God's mercy :)

As I said earlier, this mocking of Islam is not just lone work done by lonely person. I bet there are thousands of people are daily mocking Islam in worst way possible.

It's just that when intention is to mock Muslims - who are quite sensitive given current geopolitics, is what make situation worse.

People think it's free speech. Majority Muslims think it's clear provocation by announcing it openly.

Muslims are closely associated with their religion. They attach great feelings towards it and hence the reaction...Have you seen how Black folks react when called "nigga"?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:41 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.


I think debate is going well beyond my scope and grip.

I know that's a opinion of quite a people in west.

If you don't mind me asking, are you atheist?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:45 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.

I'd rep you if I could. Want world peace? End religion.


See, I always wondered about that one...

If purely secular cultures are such superior developments, where are they all? Why doesn't the cream rise to the top?

Where are all the examples of these purely secular utopias?

I subscribe to some anti-theists on YouTube. They seem to get quite outraged when somebody suggests the Nazis were moving in that direction. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:54 am
 


Fighter wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.


I think debate is going well beyond my scope and grip.

I know that's a opinion of quite a people in west.

If you don't mind me asking, are you atheist?


I believe in God and the afterlife. But I don't believe in Satan or Hell. I think pretty much all religions have always been fairy stories used as instruments of social control by the elites to oppress the common people. I've read absolutely terrible comic books that were still better written than any holy book, and I've gotten more actual morality out of fiction in books or from TV shows than I ever have from any church I've accidently blundered into.

If you're going to do the right thing then do it because it's in your own best social interest as a member of a society to do so - no man is an island, not matter how much of this "self-made hero" crap we get from the capitalists and other moral deviants like them. Co-operation and helping others is always the best thing to do, both emotionally & mentally for yourself and as the overall meta that society should operate by. Doing good only because you're either scared of God punishing you if you don't, or if you're looking for God to give you some sort of reward for it, is both cowardly and selfish and essentially ruins the entire reason for doing good to begin with.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:09 am
 


Please God, if there is a God

Save my soul, if I have a soul

Satan created all religions and is now laughing her ass off.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:49 am
 


Fighter wrote:
You are right. God forgives. Many Pakistanis also say that and they are right but don't you think if we do all awkward/offensive/sins things while thinking God will forgive us, is some kinda trolling God?


Not all questioning of God is offensive or trolling. This is the problem I have with religion. People think it sin to question dogma

Fighter wrote:
I am not in favor taking unfair advantage of God's mercy :)


Define unfair. God Loves unconditionally (except you must meet the condition of believing in god)

Fighter wrote:
As I said earlier, this mocking of Islam is not just lone work done by lonely person. I bet there are thousands of people are daily mocking Islam in worst way possible.


And People of Islam have, in the past flown planes into buildings and murdered thousands. What about the thousands of Muslims that damage the house of the lord, who slight Jesus Christ, who don't believe he died for our sins. To deny Jesus is a sin. Everything is a matter of perspective.

Fighter wrote:
It's just that when intention is to mock Muslims - who are quite sensitive given current geopolitics, is what make situation worse.


But to mock and belittle Christians and "non-believers" is fine because Imams permit it and encourage it?

Fighter wrote:
People think it's free speech. Majority Muslims think it's clear provocation by announcing it openly.


It is free speech. The majority of muslims who can't understand that in the west people have a right to their opinion, need to go to their safety circle. You cant lynch everyone with a dissenting opinion of the prophet. Dissension is exactly what is needed right now. think. If Martin Luther had not dissented against the Catholic Church with his points of reformation, we'd be stuck with the far more oppressive version of the Catholic Church today. But his dissension lead to the Church becoming far more moderate. We no longer refer to the Bible for "heretical" crimes, we haven't burned an adulterer in over 200 years. Dissension leads to the change necessary for your survival.

Fighter wrote:
Muslims are closely associated with their religion. They attach great feelings towards it and hence the reaction...Have you seen how Black folks react when called "nigga"?


Being from Scarborough and running in Regent's Park back in the day, "Nigga" is a term of endearment. a phrase used between friends. Both Black and Whites use the phrase in the hood. Many Christians see them selves as Christians, but they don't demand you die should you insult god


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:50 pm
 


Fighter wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.


I think debate is going well beyond my scope and grip.

I know that's a opinion of quite a people in west.

If you don't mind me asking, are you atheist?

I agree with thanos on this one, and I am an atheist.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:55 pm
 


:|


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:01 pm
 


I just want to leave this here, Rowan Atkinson lampooning religion, no one has demanded he be held for Blasphemy or for having heretical beliefs. Maybe you’ll have a good chuckle. Self deprecation is a sign of humility.
https://youtu.be/3jzHke83iWM


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:42 am
 


And Fighter, I'm not trying to disparage you or Islam, I'm asking provocative questions to get you to see that we shouldn't take religion so seriously, and that people shouldn't be stoned, beaten, beheaded or crucified for making light of or disparaging a religion.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 am
 


Tricks wrote:
Fighter wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Religion is, bar none, the single worst thing humans have ever created and as such it absolutely deserves the mockery it receives.


I think debate is going well beyond my scope and grip.

I know that's a opinion of quite a people in west.

If you don't mind me asking, are you atheist?

I agree with thanos on this one, and I am an atheist.


:)

Thanos wrote:
I believe in God and the afterlife. But I don't believe in Satan or Hell. I think pretty much all religions have always been fairy stories used as instruments of social control by the elites to oppress the common people. I've read absolutely terrible comic books that were still better written than any holy book, and I've gotten more actual morality out of fiction in books or from TV shows than I ever have from any church I've accidently blundered into.

If you're going to do the right thing then do it because it's in your own best social interest as a member of a society to do so - no man is an island, not matter how much of this "self-made hero" crap we get from the capitalists and other moral deviants like them. Co-operation and helping others is always the best thing to do, both emotionally & mentally for yourself and as the overall meta that society should operate by. Doing good only because you're either scared of God punishing you if you don't, or if you're looking for God to give you some sort of reward for it, is both cowardly and selfish and essentially ruins the entire reason for doing good to begin with.


I understand your point :)

llama66 wrote:

Not all questioning of God is offensive or trolling. This is the problem I have with religion. People think it sin to question dogma


Define unfair. God Loves unconditionally (except you must meet the condition of believing in god)

And People of Islam have, in the past flown planes into buildings and murdered thousands. What about the thousands of Muslims that damage the house of the lord, who slight Jesus Christ, who don't believe he died for our sins. To deny Jesus is a sin. Everything is a matter of perspective.

But to mock and belittle Christians and "non-believers" is fine because Imams permit it and encourage it?

It is free speech. The majority of muslims who can't understand that in the west people have a right to their opinion, need to go to their safety circle. You cant lynch everyone with a dissenting opinion of the prophet. Dissension is exactly what is needed right now. think. If Martin Luther had not dissented against the Catholic Church with his points of reformation, we'd be stuck with the far more oppressive version of the Catholic Church today. But his dissension lead to the Church becoming far more moderate. We no longer refer to the Bible for "heretical" crimes, we haven't burned an adulterer in over 200 years. Dissension leads to the change necessary for your survival.

Being from Scarborough and running in Regent's Park back in the day, "Nigga" is a term of endearment. a phrase used between friends. Both Black and Whites use the phrase in the hood. Many Christians see them selves as Christians, but they don't demand you die should you insult god


Yes. You can question anything. Islam doesn't stop you from that.

Unfair means you do everything God forbid you to do, deliberately but also expect god will forgive you...Though He is most merciful and can forgive you if He wants....What Muslims are taught to never shy away from asking forgiveness from God, doesn't matter how much sins one has committed...

No..They were not people of Islam...They were trained mercenaries of West who used them to fight Soviets but then everything got backfired when shit hit home.

Image

Muslims respect all Prophets. I don't get it when Muslims damaged house of lord. Jesus Christ (PBUH) is mentioned in Quran way more times than Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) got mentioned. There is a whole verse in Quran, ttitled; "Mary" (Surah Maryam). I wonder how many Christians know about that. Islam is last sealing compiled religion of all Abrahamic faiths. Muslims don't mock or draw paintings of religious figures because they consider all of them as their own. Why would Muslims mock Christians?

This is exactly where we are not agreeing...You are calling it free speech while it is not...It is full fledged organized intentional mocking of Islam....Obviously among billion Muslims, you will find some who want to murder that offender while some will prefer to beat the crap out of him. Having dissenting opinion is one thing, no one has problem with that but Muslims lose patience when certain line gets crossed. Thankfully, Europeans have started realization on this....European parliament has just did the ruling. Just because you have right to free speech doesn't mean you'll misuse it and that's exactly what's happening. Muslims are being provoked continuously.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1834338/3-european-human-rights-court-rules-defaming-prophet-muhammad-pbuh/

Why send a person to 5 year jail just because he denied holocaust or disputed the number of Jews killed in that tragedy? Is it not against fee speech?

I don't think any person from different ethnicity will like to try to say "nigga" or "nigger" to black person...Chances are there will be physical fight.

Anyway....Despite so much anti Islam campaign in west, Muslims are quite happy.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/05/being-muslim-in-america/

https://www.politico.eu/article/us-election-running-anti-muslim-campaigns-a-losing-strategy

llama66 wrote:
And Fighter, I'm not trying to disparage you or Islam, I'm asking provocative questions to get you to see that we shouldn't take religion so seriously, and that people shouldn't be stoned, beaten, beheaded or crucified for making light of or disparaging a religion.


What I am saying is that we all can't be same....Some communities may be comfortable with the idea of making fun of religion but there are some out there who are absolutely not going with this. Right now, there is a lack of leadership in Muslim world and hence most of the times our reaction as a community can be like of a headless chicken but I hope we soon unite and gather a consensus on all issues confronting us.

I respect you, sir and I enjoyed the debate fully :) [B-o]


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