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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:40 am
 


martin14 wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
The 2% was a goal. Not an agreement. Not a 'treaty'.


**coughcoughwhinewimperbutItriedIreallytriedIknowIagreedbutIjustcantdoitwhinewimpercoughcough**

If we can't be bothered to live up to our commitments, we should leave NATO.


Canada has more than lived up to its NATO commitments.

We spent tens of billions of dollars maintaining a brigade group and air wing in Europe for 40+ years. We built a first class ASW navy and worked with NATO to patrol the Atlantic throughout the Cold War, participating (and leading) SNMG1 for decades, and have also sent ships to SNMG 2 in the Mediterranean Sea. We were one of the first to show up on Cyprus to keep Greece and Turkey from going to war with each other - and then stayed there for more than 20 years.

When the US was attacked on 9/11 and invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty, we sent one of the largest contingents to Afghanistan, including ground, air and naval assets. There we lost more soldiers per capita than anyone except the Americans. We had troops and planes in the middle east fighting ISIS, and now we've committed to keeping a battalion in Latvia to deter Russian aggression for another five years. The fact is we've participated in dozens of NATO-led missions and operations over the past 60+ years.

So what if we haven't reached some BS defence spending metric (the deadline for which is 2024 BTW) six years before the deadline?

I certainly want Canada to reach that commitment, but only an asshole can say Canada hasn't pulled its weight in NATO since it was founded in 1949.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:05 am
 


bootlegga wrote:
I certainly want Canada to reach that commitment, but only an asshole can say Canada hasn't pulled its weight in NATO since it was founded in 1949.

Agreed 100%. Especially on the bolded.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:36 am
 


bootlegga wrote:
lots of good stuff


+5 if I was still in the rep point game [B-o]

None of us, certainly not Canada or Britain, are obligated to sit back quietly and take crap off of the Americans for this, and especially not insults about "commitment" from some cowardly rich-boy motherfucker like Donald Trump considering his bonespurs bullshit he used to dodge service in Vietnam. Fuck them. :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 am
 


bootlegga wrote:
martin14 wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
The 2% was a goal. Not an agreement. Not a 'treaty'.


**coughcoughwhinewimperbutItriedIreallytriedIknowIagreedbutIjustcantdoitwhinewimpercoughcough**

If we can't be bothered to live up to our commitments, we should leave NATO.


Canada has more than lived up to its NATO commitments.

We spent tens of billions of dollars maintaining a brigade group and air wing in Europe for 40+ years. We built a first class ASW navy and worked with NATO to patrol the Atlantic throughout the Cold War, participating (and leading) SNMG1 for decades, and have also sent ships to SNMG 2 in the Mediterranean Sea. We were one of the first to show up on Cyprus to keep Greece and Turkey from going to war with each other - and then stayed there for more than 20 years.

When the US was attacked on 9/11 and invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty, we sent one of the largest contingents to Afghanistan, including ground, air and naval assets. There we lost more soldiers per capita than anyone except the Americans. We had troops and planes in the middle east fighting ISIS, and now we've committed to keeping a battalion in Latvia to deter Russian aggression for another five years. The fact is we've participated in dozens of NATO-led missions and operations over the past 60+ years.

So what if we haven't reached some BS defence spending metric (the deadline for which is 2024 BTW) six years before the deadline?

I certainly want Canada to reach that commitment, but only an asshole can say Canada hasn't pulled its weight in NATO since it was founded in 1949.



Well thank you for that history lesson, most of which happened before you were even born,
and a time when we had better leaders.

All the story telling doesn't add up to 2%. You know, the one ALL the leaders keep using,
despite your God like wisdom, telling us all how wrong they all are.

Image


Not since Pearson....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:20 am
 


God like wisdom? Awwww.... you're so kind.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:53 pm
 


martin14 wrote:
bootlegga wrote:
martin14 wrote:
**coughcoughwhinewimperbutItriedIreallytriedIknowIagreedbutIjustcantdoitwhinewimpercoughcough**

If we can't be bothered to live up to our commitments, we should leave NATO.


Canada has more than lived up to its NATO commitments.

We spent tens of billions of dollars maintaining a brigade group and air wing in Europe for 40+ years. We built a first class ASW navy and worked with NATO to patrol the Atlantic throughout the Cold War, participating (and leading) SNMG1 for decades, and have also sent ships to SNMG 2 in the Mediterranean Sea. We were one of the first to show up on Cyprus to keep Greece and Turkey from going to war with each other - and then stayed there for more than 20 years.

When the US was attacked on 9/11 and invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty, we sent one of the largest contingents to Afghanistan, including ground, air and naval assets. There we lost more soldiers per capita than anyone except the Americans. We had troops and planes in the middle east fighting ISIS, and now we've committed to keeping a battalion in Latvia to deter Russian aggression for another five years. The fact is we've participated in dozens of NATO-led missions and operations over the past 60+ years.

So what if we haven't reached some BS defence spending metric (the deadline for which is 2024 BTW) six years before the deadline?

I certainly want Canada to reach that commitment, but only an asshole can say Canada hasn't pulled its weight in NATO since it was founded in 1949.



Well thank you for that history lesson, most of which happened before you were even born,
and a time when we had better leaders.

All the story telling doesn't add up to 2%. You know, the one ALL the leaders keep using,
despite your God like wisdom, telling us all how wrong they all are.

Image


Not since Pearson....



Read your post again - you specifically said commitments.

Canada has lived up to all of them, and every time we've been asked for a NATO contribution, we've said "Ready, Aye Ready!"

Every fucking time!

Even on this commitment you keep harping on about, it was made in 2014 and doesn't end until 2024, so you can go piss up a rope about us not meeting it.

Frankly, I'm at the point with this line of BS where I just wish Trudeau would tell Trump, "The next time there is a 9/11, go ask Estonia to back you up, Canada is busy." Sure that would play to his base, but it would serve notice to the handful of American politicians with brains that Canada is tired of Cheeto's bullying.

Maybe Estonia's three tiny minesweepers can replace one of our Halifax FFHs in a US battle group. We may not have many tanks (100 or so), but we at least have them (Estonia has zero). And air support - well, I'm sure both of Estonia's Czech-made jet trainers will be useful in some role.

That's the God like wisdom you noted - there are different levels of support, and if Trump only wants help from the 2% crowd, all it will mean is more American dead in whatever godforsaken dump he sends them to.



P.S. Lovely chart - too bad "I love the Armed Forces" Harper wasn't any better for the CAF than PM Selfie. :P


Last edited by bootlegga on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:58 pm
 


bootlegga wrote:


Frankly, I'm at the point with this line of BS where I just wish Trudeau would tell Trump, "The next time there is a 9/11, go ask Estonia to back you up, Canada is busy."


If the Canadian government offers the US any support at all if/when they attack North Korea, Iran, or Venezuela (look that one up - last year Trump seriously asked his military advisors why he couldn't when he wanted to) while the Trump regime is in power then that Canadian government should be forced to resign.

If "America Alone" is what MAGA wanted then they certainly got it. There is no going back, not after the way Trump has deliberately insulted ALL of America's real friends and allies. They can go ask their new best buddies in Russian and Saudi Arabia for help. :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:51 pm
 


What's the point of posting a spending graph and trying to claim it has something to do with poor leadership and NATO commitments? You wanna pull that shit, then look at how much it dropped under the Dief's watch compared to how little it dropped since the Cold War ended.
Want to ramp it up? Then just fund Bombardier to build an Avro Arrow II. Or when the Orange Asshole slaps an auto tariff we can get GM Canada to churn out 20,000 army trucks that can go rust in the rain.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:55 pm
 


We're neighbours and friends at the end of the day regardless of what he says or thinks. Were there a war on the Korean Peninsula or in Venezuela or god forbid another major terror attack on US soil we'd forget all about the stupid shit he's said about us and go and help them. No questions asked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:56 pm
 


llama66 wrote:
We're neighbours and friends at the end of the day regardless of what he says or thinks. Were there a war on the Korean Peninsula or in Venezuela or god forbid another major terror attack on US soil we'd forget all about the stupid shit he's said about us and go and help them. No questions asked.

The question is, would the reverse be true?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:55 pm
 


There's a line that's been crossed in the way Trump has approached this issue, and made it worse with his ridiculous trade war. I don't think that things can ever go back to the way they were, even if/when he's gone from the presidency. The thing that should be noticed is that none of the Americans who support him have said anything at against the way he's behaving towards friends and allies of the US, which leaves the only remaining option that they agree with him on all of it and regard us the exact same way that he does.

I won't speak for anyone else here but I will absolutely fucking detonate if the Canadian government backs Trump up if the US attacks North Korea or Iran. Not only can we not support actions like that but we cannot support HIM, period, on anything he does. He is an ENEMY of our country and we can't look at it any other way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:09 pm
 


If Trump instigates a war, I would agree we shouldn't be involved.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:10 pm
 


No Conservative PM has ever increased military spending in peacetime either so the usual right wing gasbags can cut their horseshit


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 pm
 


Tricks wrote:
llama66 wrote:
We're neighbours and friends at the end of the day regardless of what he says or thinks. Were there a war on the Korean Peninsula or in Venezuela or god forbid another major terror attack on US soil we'd forget all about the stupid shit he's said about us and go and help them. No questions asked.

The question is, would the reverse be true?

You make a fair point, at the end of the day I do think they’d have our back.. I think if you set the opinion of the current administration aside, the general opinion of Canada is positive stateside. I have to believe they’d assist us were we ever invaded


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:59 pm
 


llama66 wrote:
Tricks wrote:
llama66 wrote:
We're neighbours and friends at the end of the day regardless of what he says or thinks. Were there a war on the Korean Peninsula or in Venezuela or god forbid another major terror attack on US soil we'd forget all about the stupid shit he's said about us and go and help them. No questions asked.

The question is, would the reverse be true?

You make a fair point, at the end of the day I do think they’d have our back.. I think if you set the opinion of the current administration aside, the general opinion of Canada is positive stateside. I have to believe they’d assist us were we ever invaded

With the assumption that the USA would assist Canada who would invade us?


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