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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:20 pm
 


Title: Venezuelans regret gun ban
Category: World
Posted By: N_Fiddledog
Date: 2018-12-14 13:14:33


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:20 pm
 


"Guns would have served as a vital pillar to remaining a free people, or at least able to put up a fight," Javier Vanegas, 28, a Venezuelan teacher of English now exiled in Ecuador, told Fox News. "The government security forces, at the beginning of this debacle, knew they had no real opposition to their force. Once things were this bad, it was a clear declaration of war against an unarmed population."

Nuff' said.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:42 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
"Guns would have served as a vital pillar to remaining a free people, or at least able to put up a fight," Javier Vanegas, 28, a Venezuelan teacher of English now exiled in Ecuador, told Fox News. "The government security forces, at the beginning of this debacle, knew they had no real opposition to their force. Once things were this bad, it was a clear declaration of war against an unarmed population."

Nuff' said.



R=UP

No guns, no counter revolution because an unarmed population is a docile population.

Even the father of Communism knew that to be true.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:48 pm
 


Yet the bleating sheep still act as if they will be better protected from wolves if the sheepdog is chained. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:44 pm
 


Well, that explains it, the about 33000 firearms deaths each year in the USA are just practice for when the citizens rise up and put a President in front of a firing squad. MAGA!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:07 pm
 


The Venezuelan military and police were just as good at oppression when the country was a lapdog and corporate slave-labour plantation of the United States as they are today as an American enemy.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:08 pm
 


fifeboy wrote:
Well, that explains it, the about 33000 firearms deaths each year in the USA are just practice for when the citizens rise up and put a President in front of a firing squad. MAGA!


So a gun ban in Venezuela resulted in approx 12,800 deaths or 38.7 per 100.000.
Whereas the US is approx 10.6 per 100,000.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands

Now that really explains it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:16 pm
 


Baloney. Governments wilth military hardware are not afraid of civilians with small arms. And the venezuelan gun ban is relatively recent; venezuela remains one of the most heavily armed populations. Prior to the ban it had one of the highest rates of gun ownership and most of those guns are still out there.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:23 pm
 


Venezuela is also one of the many, if not all, Central and South American countries that were heavily armed by the United States for the sole purpose of keeping their own populations under control, with maximum brutality if necessary, in order to not disrupt the piratical activities of the American corporations that have been merrily looting the place for decades. Trying an American Second Amendment sort of argument in countries that have been savaged and ravaged by tyrannical armies and police forces that were given by the very same United States the weapons to kill as many of their own citizens as possible is ironic if nothing else. It will probably work on the usual incurious dullards but anyone with even a small bit of historical knowledge of Latin American countries, and what the US has done to them for over a century and a half, knows that this type of rah-rah routine from FOX is total crap.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:32 pm
 


From the article:

Quote:
Under the direction of then-President Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan National Assembly in 2012 enacted the “Control of Arms, Munitions and Disarmament Law,” with the explicit aim to “disarm all citizens.” The law took effect in 2013, with only minimal pushback from some pro-democracy opposition figures, banned the legal commercial sale of guns and munitions to all - except government entities.

Chavez initially ran a months-long amnesty program encouraging Venezuelans to trade their arms for electrical goods. That year, there were only 37 recorded voluntary gun surrenders, while the majority of seizures - more than 12,500 – were by force.

In 2014, with Nicolás Maduro at the helm following Chavez’s death but carrying through his socialist “Chavista” policies, the government invested more than $47 million enforcing the gun ban – which has since included grandiose displays of public weapons demolitions in the town square.

A former gun store owner inside Venezuela – who told Fox News he has now been relegated to only selling fishing supplies since the ban – said he can’t sell any type of weaponry - even a slingshot - and underscored that even BB ammunition and airsoft guns are only issued to police and military officers.

The punishment for illicit carrying or selling a weapon now is 20 years behind bars.

Although the bill was sold to the population as a hardline effort to improve security, and sharply reduce crime, many now point to Venezuela as a case study for how gun prohibition can actually produce the opposite effect.

The violent crime rate, already high, soared. Almost 28,000 people were murdered in 2015 – with the homicide rate becoming the world’s highest. Compare that, according to GunPolicy.org – an international firearms prevention and policy research initiative – to just under 10,000 in 2012, and 6,500 thousand in 2001, the year before Chavez came to power.

The total number of gun deaths in 2013 was estimated to 14,622, having steadily risen from 10,913 in 2002. While comprehensive data now goes unrecorded by the government, in September this year, Amnesty International declared Venezuela had a murder rate “worse than some war zones” – 89 people per 100,000 people - and three times that of its volatile neighbor Brazil.

Much of the crime has been attributed by analysts to government-backed gangs – referred to in Spanish as “collectivos” – who were deliberately put in place by the government.

“They were set up by the government to act as proxies and exert community control. They're the guys on the motorcycles in the poor neighborhoods, who killed any protesters,” said Vanessa Neumann, the Venezuelan-American president and founder of Asymmetrica, a Washington, D.C.-based political risk research and consulting firm. “The gun reform policy of the government was about social control. As the citizenry got more desperate and hungry and angry with the political situation, they did not want them to be able to defend themselves. It was not about security; it was about a monopoly on violence and social control.”

So while Venezuelan citizens were stripped of their legal recourse to bear arms, the “collectivos” – established by Chavez when came to power – were legally locked and loaded. Deemed crucial to the survival of the socialist dictatorship, the “collectivos” function to brutally subjugate opposition groups, while saving some face as they aren’t officially government forces, critics contend.

Eduardo Espinel, 35, who serves as a representative for the rapidly growing Venezuelan population in the Colombian border town of Cucuta – having fled his ailing nation two years ago under the threat of being kidnapped by local gangsters – said the law had proliferated the violence by allowing the collectivos to freely and legally shoot and kill.

“Everyone else but the common citizen. This law asks for the disarming of the common people, but everyone else can carry,” Espinel said. “The kind of law might make sense in a normal country, but in Venezuela, it makes no sense. People are faced with crime and have no easy means to defend themselves.”

Many contend the gun ban has in some ways hurt police and law enforcement, who have themselves become a more fervent target of street gangs. There was a 14 percent increase in police murders in 2016. And more than 80 percent of assailants subsequently stole the officer’s gun, according to Insight Crime.

Some experts contend many of the weapons and ammunition used by gangsters were once in the hands of government forces, and obtained either through theft or purchase from corrupt individuals.

And adding to the complication, the ranks of the police force are beleaguered by crime and corruption. “Crimes are committed by police, a lot of the criminals are police themselves,” said Saul Moros, 59, from the Venezuelan city of Valencia.

Luis Farias, 48, from Margarita, said that gun violence was indeed bad when guns were freely available for purchase. But it became much worse after the gun ban was passed. “Now the criminal mother is unleashed,” Farias said. “Trying to ban guns didn’t take guns off the streets. Nobody cares about the law; the criminals don’t care about the law.”

A black market in weapons is also thriving. There are an estimated six million unregistered firearms circulating in Venezuela, but they remain far from reach for the average, non-criminal Venezuelan.

“The black market of weapons is very active, mostly used by violent criminals,” said Johan Obdola, a former counter-narcotics chief in Venezuela and now president of Latin America-focused, Canada-based global intelligence and security firm IOSI. “Venezuelans simply looking to protect themselves from the regime are totally vulnerable.”

Prices vary daily. But an AR-15 rifle goes for around $500, sources said, while handguns sell for about $250. Those prices are far beyond the reach of the average Venezuelan.

“Most guns can be bought illegally in a sort of pyramid structure. A big irregular group or criminal organization has the best access to weapons directly from the government, and they sometimes even get access to basically new unused weaponry," explained Vanegas. "The longer down the pyramid you are, you must get your weapon from the nearest big irregular group that overpowers you within your territory. This is not an option for any moral person, due to the fact that you need to deal with criminals in order to get an illegal gun. And for many obvious reasons, people will not even consider this.”

According to Omar Adolfo Zares Sanchez, 48, a lawyer, politician, and former mayor of Campo Elías municipality in the Venezuelan state of Mérida, it is now all but too late to make guns legally accessible to the average person.

“Without a doubt, if there had been a balance of armed defense we could have stood up and stopped the oppression at the beginning,” he contended. “But there is too much anarchy on the streets now. Making guns easier for anybody to buy now would start a civil war.”


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:08 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Baloney. Governments wilth military hardware are not afraid of civilians with small arms.


Then why are those same governments so hot and horny to ban them?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:30 pm
 


PluggyRug wrote:
fifeboy wrote:
Well, that explains it, the about 33000 firearms deaths each year in the USA are just practice for when the citizens rise up and put a President in front of a firing squad. MAGA!


So a gun ban in Venezuela resulted in approx 12,800 deaths or 38.7 per 100.000.
Whereas the US is approx 10.6 per 100,000.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands

Now that really explains it.

Actually Plugs, the difference is probably due to the Venezuelans having to practice the watering the tree of liberty thing more often than Americans. It’s not like some other nation hasn’t provided them with one or two tyrants in the past. On the other hand, it may be that famous Latin temperament. MVGA!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:58 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
From the article:

Quote:
Under the direction of then-President Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan National Assembly in 2012 enacted the “Control of Arms, Munitions and Disarmament Law,” with the explicit aim to “disarm all citizens.” The law took effect in 2013, with only minimal pushback from some pro-democracy opposition figures, banned the legal commercial sale of guns and munitions to all - except government entities.

Chavez initially ran a months-long amnesty program encouraging Venezuelans to trade their arms for electrical goods. That year, there were only 37 recorded voluntary gun surrenders, while the majority of seizures - more than 12,500 – were by force.

In 2014, with Nicolás Maduro at the helm following Chavez’s death but carrying through his socialist “Chavista” policies, the government invested more than $47 million enforcing the gun ban – which has since included grandiose displays of public weapons demolitions in the town square.

A former gun store owner inside Venezuela – who told Fox News he has now been relegated to only selling fishing supplies since the ban – said he can’t sell any type of weaponry - even a slingshot - and underscored that even BB ammunition and airsoft guns are only issued to police and military officers.

The punishment for illicit carrying or selling a weapon now is 20 years behind bars.

Although the bill was sold to the population as a hardline effort to improve security, and sharply reduce crime, many now point to Venezuela as a case study for how gun prohibition can actually produce the opposite effect.

The violent crime rate, already high, soared. Almost 28,000 people were murdered in 2015 – with the homicide rate becoming the world’s highest. Compare that, according to GunPolicy.org – an international firearms prevention and policy research initiative – to just under 10,000 in 2012, and 6,500 thousand in 2001, the year before Chavez came to power.

The total number of gun deaths in 2013 was estimated to 14,622, having steadily risen from 10,913 in 2002. While comprehensive data now goes unrecorded by the government, in September this year, Amnesty International declared Venezuela had a murder rate “worse than some war zones” – 89 people per 100,000 people - and three times that of its volatile neighbor Brazil.

Much of the crime has been attributed by analysts to government-backed gangs – referred to in Spanish as “collectivos” – who were deliberately put in place by the government.

“They were set up by the government to act as proxies and exert community control. They're the guys on the motorcycles in the poor neighborhoods, who killed any protesters,” said Vanessa Neumann, the Venezuelan-American president and founder of Asymmetrica, a Washington, D.C.-based political risk research and consulting firm. “The gun reform policy of the government was about social control. As the citizenry got more desperate and hungry and angry with the political situation, they did not want them to be able to defend themselves. It was not about security; it was about a monopoly on violence and social control.”

So while Venezuelan citizens were stripped of their legal recourse to bear arms, the “collectivos” – established by Chavez when came to power – were legally locked and loaded. Deemed crucial to the survival of the socialist dictatorship, the “collectivos” function to brutally subjugate opposition groups, while saving some face as they aren’t officially government forces, critics contend.

Eduardo Espinel, 35, who serves as a representative for the rapidly growing Venezuelan population in the Colombian border town of Cucuta – having fled his ailing nation two years ago under the threat of being kidnapped by local gangsters – said the law had proliferated the violence by allowing the collectivos to freely and legally shoot and kill.

“Everyone else but the common citizen. This law asks for the disarming of the common people, but everyone else can carry,” Espinel said. “The kind of law might make sense in a normal country, but in Venezuela, it makes no sense. People are faced with crime and have no easy means to defend themselves.”

Many contend the gun ban has in some ways hurt police and law enforcement, who have themselves become a more fervent target of street gangs. There was a 14 percent increase in police murders in 2016. And more than 80 percent of assailants subsequently stole the officer’s gun, according to Insight Crime.

Some experts contend many of the weapons and ammunition used by gangsters were once in the hands of government forces, and obtained either through theft or purchase from corrupt individuals.

And adding to the complication, the ranks of the police force are beleaguered by crime and corruption. “Crimes are committed by police, a lot of the criminals are police themselves,” said Saul Moros, 59, from the Venezuelan city of Valencia.

Luis Farias, 48, from Margarita, said that gun violence was indeed bad when guns were freely available for purchase. But it became much worse after the gun ban was passed. “Now the criminal mother is unleashed,” Farias said. “Trying to ban guns didn’t take guns off the streets. Nobody cares about the law; the criminals don’t care about the law.”

A black market in weapons is also thriving. There are an estimated six million unregistered firearms circulating in Venezuela, but they remain far from reach for the average, non-criminal Venezuelan.

“The black market of weapons is very active, mostly used by violent criminals,” said Johan Obdola, a former counter-narcotics chief in Venezuela and now president of Latin America-focused, Canada-based global intelligence and security firm IOSI. “Venezuelans simply looking to protect themselves from the regime are totally vulnerable.”

Prices vary daily. But an AR-15 rifle goes for around $500, sources said, while handguns sell for about $250. Those prices are far beyond the reach of the average Venezuelan.

“Most guns can be bought illegally in a sort of pyramid structure. A big irregular group or criminal organization has the best access to weapons directly from the government, and they sometimes even get access to basically new unused weaponry," explained Vanegas. "The longer down the pyramid you are, you must get your weapon from the nearest big irregular group that overpowers you within your territory. This is not an option for any moral person, due to the fact that you need to deal with criminals in order to get an illegal gun. And for many obvious reasons, people will not even consider this.”

According to Omar Adolfo Zares Sanchez, 48, a lawyer, politician, and former mayor of Campo Elías municipality in the Venezuelan state of Mérida, it is now all but too late to make guns legally accessible to the average person.

“Without a doubt, if there had been a balance of armed defense we could have stood up and stopped the oppression at the beginning,” he contended. “But there is too much anarchy on the streets now. Making guns easier for anybody to buy now would start a civil war.”

I don't know why but
Quote:
airsoft guns are only issued to military and police officers

struck me as the funniest thing I've read in ages.

However, that aside, don't forget you are talking about one of Great Leader's shithole countries. I wonder if Columbia, Mexico, Guatemala etc have 'better' records?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:12 pm
 


fifeboy wrote:
I don't know why but
Quote:
airsoft guns are only issued to military and police officers

struck me as the funniest thing I've read in ages.


Not sure what the "former gunstore now fishing supplies store owner means by that though.

Does he mean BB guns and airsoft rifles are issued to military and police officers as weapons for work or does he mean only government types can get toys like that - for their kids or whatever?

I don't see how relevant that is to the whole context of the piece though.

That seems to center on the idea that if the Venezuelan populace, as opposed to just government connected gangs and organizations, had been allowed continued access to guns they could have kept peace on the streets.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:14 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
I don't see how relevant that is to the whole context of the piece though.

.

I lived in Louisville Ky when I was a kid. Grade 7...we were all given subscriptions to Scholastic Scope Magazine. I remember an issue dedicated to how Americans were 'saving' the Vietnamese people from the evils of Ho Chi Min. Horrors of horrors he had police sniffers (not dogs, but people mind you) going around searching for moms who were evil enough to bake cookies.
Air soft and slingshots were put in this article for the same reason. Fox News, what else is there to say!


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