[Delwin]

If you think criminal networking in prison is a new problem or an Islamic one, you are hugely mistaken, especially in the US where joining a prison gang can sometimes be your only path to survival.

Johnny Depp's movie blow which is a biopic about George Jung's real life story and focuses on his relationship with Pablo Escobar, touches on the topic.

[andyt]

Delwin Delwin:

No worries, if there is a single Muslim jaywalker these guys will happily point him out for you and extrapolate the verse from the Koran that made him do it. Then they'll explain how the Christian jaywalkers are acting on free will.

It's jaywalking jihad, an offshot of parking jihad. FD tried to warn us, but would we listen?

[N_Fiddledog]

Delwin Delwin:

If you think criminal networking in prison is a new problem or an Islamic one, you are hugely mistaken, especially in the US where joining a prison gang can sometimes be your only path to survival.

Of course not. It's no newer than BS claims of relativism are.

In fact even specifically Muslim prison conversion and indoctrination are not new.

There's a case few have heard of, but everybody should be aware of called "The Zebra Murders". They happened in San Fransisco in the early 70s. Several of the perps involved were indoctrinated by Black Muslim preacher/imams or whatever they're calling themselves these days in prison.

Here's an online book on the Zebra Murders.

http://archive.org/stream/Zebra-Clark-H ... d_djvu.txt

In fact speaking of the idiocy that is unwarranted relativism, here's another problem. Priests and Rabbis are allowed in prisons. It's not a problem.

There is a problem with Imams having access though. There are too many Jihadi indoctrinates getting out and getting right into different forms of violent jihad. But you can't say something must be done about it, because #1 you're not allowed to notice - if you do, you're racist, and #2 atrocities traced to Muslim prison coversions are OK, because there are priests and rabbis doing work in prison too, you see.

Show me something like the Zebra killings tracing back to priests or rabbis in the 40 years since we saw the Zebra atrocities though.

[Delwin]

It's not relativism, it's a problem that is occuring across the board that you, as usual, are trying to turn into a Muslim issue. It is bigger than that.

There is an interesting study that was done on the matter by The University of Virgina:

$1:

The growth of Islam in prisons, the relative deficit of vetted religious services providers, and world events have all focused attention on radical Islam. However, it is worth noting that right-wing Christian extremist groups not only have a history of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, but a longstanding relationship with prisoners. There are many groups aligning themselves with “Christian Identity” ideology. These groups include Posse Comitatus, The Order, Aryan Nations, and many of the militia movements across the country. Aryan Nations has maintained an outreach program with inmates since the 1970’s. The racial beliefs of these groups make them appealing to white inmates who feel they must associate with inmates of the same race. As with Islamic groups, this may be related to the need for protection. Some of these groups have found common cause with extremist Muslim groups, who share their hostility towards the U.S. government and Israel. Most recently, a number of white supremacist groups vocalized their support for Hezbollah in its conflict with Israel.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/p ... 202006.pdf

[N_Fiddledog]

It is relativism and seeing as you didn't read the first link on Muslim prison conversion, or you wouldn't have tried that relativistic garbage on me, I'm going to post the highlights.

"Muslims can make life hell for non-Muslim prisoners with people being harassed into conversion, subjected to intimidation and violence if they do not embrace Islam. Some prisoners will convert as this inmate in France described doing so: “You’re seeking hope and when someone holds out a hand, you take it“. However this convert was soon urged by his new ‘spiritual’ friend to “kill the infidels wherever you find them.” (There are no official statistics in France; however Sociologist Farhad Khosrokhavar estimates “about half the 67,674 French prison population is Muslim, rising to 70% in some urban areas.” And in Italy, 35% of prison inmates come from Muslim countries.)

Back in the UK, one white British prisoner called ‘Steven’ was repeatedly approached by prison imams and asked to convert, but he managed to reject the approaches: “When I went inside the Muslims offered me help from top lawyers who would fight to get my sentence changed, if I joined them. I always resisted, but you have to understand how tempting it is to convert. First, you have their protection. You’re totally alone in prison when you get there, and if you can’t look after yourself, life is hell. You’re beaten, robbed and bullied.

“Second, every Friday Muslims are allowed prayer meetings. This is free time away from the guards, so they can plot, make new contacts and often discuss anti-West ideology.

“Muslims also get better food. They have money sent in for their kitchens from the Muslim community outside, and they get special Halal food. Then, when a converted prisoner finishes his time, he leaves as an even bigger criminal with an entirely new contact book of Muslim criminals to do business with.”

A Ministry of Justice report also concurred: “… Conditions in the prison made participation in Islamic practices the most ‘available’ option for those looking for belonging, meaning, ‘brotherhood’, trust and friendship.” In other words to escape Muslim violence and intimidation! Rapists & paedophiles usually have a torrid time in jail but are welcomed with open arms by the prison ummah. ‘Dregs of society’ like child killer Levi Bellfield willingly embraced Islam for protection, and brutal killer Dale Cregan has been targeted by Muslims to add muscle to their ranks.
Source: http://www.muslimprisoners.com/

For others who do not convert life can be unbearable. One woman, for example, said of her brother inside: “He looks like a broken man … He’s been physically assaulted … and in the showers, he got threatened with a knife. He’s not going to convert for anyone.” She added: “He just spends his time hiding in his cell …. I don’t know how much longer he can hold out.”

Separately a prison officer told of a “black inmate being hospitalised after being attacked with scalding liquid. The inmate claimed that it had happened because he’d not converted to Islam.”

There are often clashes between Muslim and non-Muslim inmates. For example in 2009, at high-security HMP Belmarsh, Muslim inmates played table tennis during a two minute silence on Remembrance Sunday, leading to a non-Muslim prisoner confiscating the table tennis ball. The following day five Muslims sought ‘revenge’ and attacked the man with boiling water and a glass jar in a sock leaving him seriously injured.

In a separate incident another prisoner stated that he was abused “after he wore a poppy and Muslim inmates discovered that he had a brother in the army. When news of a soldier getting killed was heard, prisoners would taunt him with shouts of “hope it’s your brother” and “your wife’s burning in hell ‘cos she’s not a Muslim”.

‘Shari’a Law‘ is effectively enforced by Muslims in some prisons, with inmates threatened to be stabbed if they cook pork, music banned and pictures of women torn down. Prison Officers’ Association National Chairman Colin Moses warned: “As the Muslim population grows, the (Muslim) gangs are becoming more and more prevalent by the week, and they fight to take control of the drug trade and the dealing of mobile phones in prison. This will make our prisons even more violent.”

Prisoners claim Muslim inmates receive better treatment but are a constant headache for the authorities, who are either paralysed through political correctness or simply do not know how to handle the situation. One report stated an ‘ongoing theme of fear and instability’ among staff at high-security HMP Whitemoor, where around one third of the inmates are Muslim and prison officers are losing control of entire wings.
Source: http://revolutionaryfrontlines.wordpres ... ent-units/

British prisons are breeding grounds for Islamic terrorism, and Colin Moses warned of the dangers posed by radicalised inmates: “People are being radicalised, forcibly radicalised by these gangs. We see it as a real danger, now and for the future of prisons.” Joe Chapman, himself a former prison guard, pointed out: “Prison guards at one Cambridgeshire institution said that inmates who were members of al-Qaida were regarded with “awe” by younger prisoners.” New prisoners are often targeted straight away as one Paris Imam, Hassen Chalghoumi, said: “I have parents who come to me and say: ‘My son went in a dealer and came out a fundamentalist.'”

After Osama bin Laden’s death, at the British jail where many Muslim terrorists are held, HMP Belmarsh, Governors believed al-Qaeda extremists were planning a major attack as payback, and security was stepped up to “unprecedented” levels. “Warnings that the Muslim Boys gang plotted a revenge mission and a 15-strong riot squad in stab-proof vests has hidden around the jail’s chapel during Muslim prayers on Fridays in case of an attack.” (Last year “officers discovered 13 razor-sharp weapons were found hidden under Muslim prayer mats after an inmate was stabbed in a jail war.”)

The problem of Muslim crime and the Muslim prison population is obviously far too severe already, but will continue to rise exponentially as the amount of Muslims in Britain increases. The lunacy began when millions of Muslims were needlessly imported into Britain, but unfortunately this is just another aspect where we are truly witnessing the ideological fantasy of importing Islam, going up in smoke."



http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/02/1 ... 1275347858

And if the best you can do when I ask you to show me something like the Muslim Zebra killing atrocities perpetrated by Muslim prison converts to something traced to prison priests or rabbis, and the best you can do is to strawman me towards the National Socialists of the Aryan nations pffft... That's all it's worth.

[Delwin]

Read the link ? It is a link to a 400 page book, and no I did not read the book, I am familiar with the Zebra killings, and it is a case study, not a trend.

It was 4 people and it happened 40 Years ago. That is not a trend. Could you give another example of a Muslim terrorist who was indoctrinated in prison ?


Timothy McVeigh
Terry Nichols
Jim David Adkisson
Wade Michael Page

All Christian right wing terrorists, all former members of the US army, is the army indoctrinating Christian terrorists ? We should really look into this.

You post examples of jail conditions whereby people are forced to accept membership into a group or face violence.

I would not be surprised if that happens in every single Penitentiary in every country in the world. It's what happens when people need protection, they congregate, it is a natural human trait.

You have given 4 people who were guilty of the zebra killings 40 years ago, and racial riots in prisons in Britain and France (Because you couldn't find anything local). NOT an indictment of Islam when every other group has similar crimes that can be drawn from.

[Delwin]

Another good study for you to blindly ignore:


Facts and Fictions about Islam in Prison:
Assessing Prisoner Radicalization in Post-9/11 America

$1:

Are Extremist Muslims in American Prisons a Unique Threat?
A Comparative View
In debates about prisoner radicalization, Muslims are portrayed as a particularly deadly threat, more so than other ideological groups. This argument appears unfounded, particularly when considering such White Supremacist groups as the Aryan Brotherhood (AB) and the Nazi Low Riders. According to FBI data, the AB is particularly deadly. Although its members represent less than one-tenth of 1% of the nation’s entire prison population, its members are responsible for 18% of all prison murders nationwide, numerous violent and drug-related offenses outside of prison, and of attempting various acts of terrorism.149 Equally telling is a 2007 prison intelligence assessment indicating that “the prison gangs most capable of using IEDs [Improvised Explosive Devices] are the white supremacy organizations, including the Aryan Brotherhood, the Order of White Knights, and inmates who claim religious affiliation with Druidism and Odinism.”150

http://www.ispu.org/pdfs/ISPU_Report_Pr ... It_WEB.pdf

[Thanos]

All of which is irrelevant because it wasn't a member of the Aryan Brotherhood that hacked off the head of a former female co-worker. It was a Muslim who did it. All of your traditional knee-jerk liberal relativism simply is not going to change that particular fact.

[Delwin]

That's what I thought, and why I asked FD why it mattered where he was indoctrinated. He believes indoctrination into radical Islam in prison is some kind of a huge issue. I was just pointing out that it is not the issue that he thinks it is.

[Delwin]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The Americans are going to go absolutely apeshit now. FatherHomeland security will use this event to further curtail civil liberties is my bet. This guy is no different than some nutball who mows down fellow postal workers, moviegoers, or primary students.

Wonder what they'll take now.

New York Politicians Ride Subways Amid Terror Warning to Allay Fears

$1:

Immediate measures included more patrols of subway cars and stations, more bag searches, an increase in the number of heavily armed officers with Kevlar helmets and more canine units, Mr. Bratton said.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2014/09 ... lay-fears/

[Zipperfish]

Delwin Delwin:

That's what I thought, and why I asked FD why it mattered where he was indoctrinated. He believes indoctrination into radical Islam in prison is some kind of a huge issue. I was just pointing out that it is not the issue that he thinks it is.

I don't think there is a pattern of Islamic terrorists being converted in prison. A lot of them are lost youth looking for a mission in life. Others embrace the religion of their forefathers, despite the fact that their parents may be moderate.

The one thing a tolerant society cannot abide is intolerance. And the problem with many in Islam is that they are intolerant.

[ShepherdsDog]

yup

[N_Fiddledog]

Delwin Delwin:

Read the link ? It is a link to a 400 page book, and no I did not read the book, I am familiar with the Zebra killings, and it is a case study, not a trend.

Why who told you to read the link? I only told you it was a link to an online book, so best guess would be, yes I knew it was a book. Also I read it in paperback when I was a kid.

$1:

It was 4 people and it happened 40 Years ago. That is not a trend.

I can't remember how many were involved, but as I remember the implication, there were most likely lot's more than 4 involved. I don't remember suggesting it was a trend. It was forty years ago though. You would think they would have done something about Muslim prison conversions during that time. They did not. Muslim conversions and resulting problems have been a continuing trend though.

$1:

Could you give another example of a Muslim terrorist who was indoctrinated in prison ?

I can, but let's deal with your little strawman army below first.

$1:

Timothy McVeigh
Terry Nichols
Jim David Adkisson
Wade Michael Page

All Christian right wing terrorists, all former members of the US army, is the army indoctrinating Christian terrorists ? We should really look into this.

Mcveigh was not overly religious.

"McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."

Some try to make the point he connected to something called "the Christian Identity movement", because he fanboyed some book that was not about CIM, but may have made some mentions of it, or references to it, or something.

There is not a demonstrable connection between McVeigh's terrorism and religion.

During the penalty phase of his trial the lawyers for Terry Nichols claimed he "sincerely converted to Christianity", but that was a little late to try to make a connection between his conversion and the crime he was already in prison for.

Jim Adkisson was "motivated by a desire to kill liberals and Democrats"

Wade Page was a racist, neo nazi, but there's no connection to religion there. Not even the sainted to Progressives, Southern poverty law center can find a connection to religion - christian or any other.

Of the four names you mentioned there is good reason to believe there was an element of radical indoctrination in one of the military camps where Wade Page was stationed. The connection was to some sort of neo-nazi organization called the National Alliance.

So yes, I agree in that case the influence of the National Alliance on soldiers on that base should be looked into, and something should be done about it. See how easy it was to say that? Try it with Muslims. Don't worry Allah won't make your teeth fall out if you tell the truth this one time.

[N_Fiddledog]

OK, so Del's stawmen are torching in the field. Let's now deal with the actual subject he was pretending to debate. Muslim indoctrination in prisons.

$1:

You post examples of jail conditions whereby people are forced to accept membership into a group or face violence.

I posted a lot more than that. I showed how useful idiots in the government and prison administration are actually enabling the indoctrination process.

I can't remember, did I show you how indoctrinators are brought in from outside to assist in the process.

$1:

Prison radicalization primarily occurs through anti-US sermons provided by contract, volunteer, or staff Imams, radicalized inmates who gain religious influence, and extremist media. Ideologies that radicalized inmates appear most often to embrace or are influenced by the Salafi form of Sunni Islam (including revisionist versions commonly known as “prison Islam”) and an extremist view of Shia Islam similar to that of the Government of Iran and Lebanese Hizballah.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadist_e ... tes#Prison

Did I show you how the indoctrination process to Islam in prisons can specifically lead to criminal activity?

$1:

Mark S. Hamm, a criminologist at Indiana State University, describes a phenomenon he calls "prison Islam." This consists of "small gang-like cliques that use cut-and-paste versions of the Koran" to give a religious patina to violent and criminal activities. Hamm has identified five such examples since 2005, notably the 2005 Los Angeles bomb plot.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion ... S._prisons

More on the specific connection to terrorism and criminality in a minute.

[N_Fiddledog]

So now let's go back to this one.

$1:

Could you give another example of a Muslim terrorist who was indoctrinated in prison ?

Tons...I almost don't know where to start or end.

No particular order then...

2009 Bronx terrorism plot

The terrorist suspects include four Muslim men; three are African-American U.S. citizens, and one is a Haitian immigrant. Cromitie, the leader, claims to have been born a Muslim; others maintain that he and some or all of the other suspects converted to Islam in prison.[6][9][10] Cromitie recruited them at the Masjid al-Ikhlas mosque in Newburgh, New York, which he attended.

Remember Cromite. We're going to go back to that guy later.

There was H. Rap Brown.

There might an argument to say his crimes were related more to racial activism than religion, but...

"He spent five years (1971–1976) in Attica Prison after a robbery conviction. While in prison, Brown converted to Islam and changed his name from Hubert Gerold Brown to Jamil Abdullah al-Amin."

Jeff Fort

"Fort served two years at the United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth and was paroled in 1976. During his time at Leavenworth, Fort converted to Islam and assumed the name Prince Malik.

He ordered members of El Rukn to meet with Libyan officials. The gang agreed to commit terrorist acts in the U.S. in exchange for US$2.5 million."


Jose Padilla]

"He was convicted of aggravated assault and manslaughter as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.[4]

After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam.

Also known as Abdullah al-Muhajir or Muhajir Abdullah (About this sound pronunciation (help·info) ahb-DUHL-lah al moo-HAH-jeer[needs IPA]), is a United States citizen from Brooklyn, New York, who was convicted in federal court of aiding terrorists.

Padilla was arrested in Chicago on May 8, 2002, on suspicion of plotting a radiological bomb ("dirty bomb") attack

2005 Los Angeles bomb plot

"The 2005 Los Angeles bomb plot was a 2005 effort by a group of ex-convicts calling themselves Jamiyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheed to bomb several military bases, a number of synagogues, and an Israeli consulate in California

Kevin James, a Muslim convert, was accused of founding a radical Islamic group called J.I.S (Jam’iyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh, Arabic for "Assembly of Authentic Islam") from his cell in Folsom Prison in California, and of recruiting fellow inmates to join his mission to kill infidels


I don't know. How many do you want?