Author Topic Options
Offline

CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 30102
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:22 pm
 


Title: The Hidden Strength Of Red Toryism In Canada, Part Two
Written By: JaredMilne
Date: Monday, November 04 at 18:00








Normal
0




false
false
false

EN-CA
X-NONE
X-NONE
















































































































































































































































































































































































































/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin-top:0cm;
mso-para-margin-right:0cm;
mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt;
mso-para-margin-left:0cm;
line-height:107%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}

At this time, just over halfway through Stephen Harper’s first term as a majority government, it’s worth finding out if traditional Canadian conservatism, more popularly known as Red Toryism, is dead. B.C. scholar Ron Dart has analyzed eleven of the main principles of Red Toryism in an extensive article on the subject.
read more



All your news belong to ME! Whahaha I eat news!


Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1310
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:22 pm
 


$1:
In my view, Canadians gave Stephen Harper a majority government precisely because he has moved towards the centre and pursued many of the centrist, Red Tory policies

Canadians are known for generally voting against rather than for, parties. This instance is no different. The federal Liberals presented themselves as asses, who could not run a lemonade stand never mind a country. And this message was promoted heavily by the Harperistas - so much so that Ontario gave Harper his majority. That, and the fact that many who would never vote Harper didn't bother to vote. This can be seen by the former "Natural Governing Party's" slide into 3rd party status.



"Stay Calm, Be Brave, Wait for the Signs"
RickW


Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1067
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:02 am
 


Jared, once again let me say that I appreciate your efforts to bridge the divide between Red Tories and Western Canadian populist conservatives, but what I keep coming back to is this question of what is and isn't "legitimate" Canadian conservatism. If you were to ask Ron Dart directly "Do you consider Red Toryism the only legitimately Canadian form of conservatism?", what would his answer be? Since you actually interact with him, you'd be in more of a position than I to query him thus. I can certainly tell you though where my money would be on his response.

So let's say for a minute that I'm correct and his response would be in the affirmative. How then do you reach out to such a person and search for a middle ground? You've attempted something like that in arguing that Preston Manning isn't so different from Dalton Camp, but that's really just sidestepping the legitimacy question by arguing that Western Canadian populist conservatism is just a variant of Upper Canada Red Toryism, and is therefore legitimate by extension.

What I would propose instead is that there are two distinct and legitimate schools of conservative political thought in Canada, each shaped largely by regional forces and traditions and which lived (often uncomfortably) in the same vessel in the form of the oxymoronically named Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.

A major point of contention is the equivalence (or non-equivalence) of the descriptors "right-wing" and "conservative" in a Canadian context. And it is true that the two terms are less synonymous in the Canadian tradition than the American one, though there is still overlap. There is, admittedly, much less overlap between "right-wing" and "tory".

How does a right-wing Reform/Alliance conservative though break bread though with someone like Ron Dart when the latter doesn't recognize the former's right to sit at the table? The differences in market/state balance aside, perhaps the fundamental difference between the two traditions is how they view the United States. This undoubtedly has something to do with the fact that the West wasn't as dense with UEL refugees or their descendants as Southern Ontario.

Reform/Alliance conservatives are considered at best excessively pro-American and at worst fifth columnists for American Republicans, but the truth is that it is the Red Tories that are more defined by their traditional (negative) attitude towards the US, as exemplified by Macdonald, Diefenbaker and, more recently, David Orchard. It is their anti-Americanism in fact that has often resulted in Red Tories making common cause with individuals and parties more ideologically to the left, more so than purely economic issues.

Maybe smaller, more numerous national parties that form one-off coalitions to govern will be the natural consequence over time of the continuing left/right and/or regional rifts within both the Conservative and Liberal parties. The NDP are somewhat more homogenous ideologically, but perhaps they are no exception as well, given their frequent habit of muzzling the far-left. After all, this is a country where even the communists can't agree on a single party.


Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1316
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:02 pm
 


Individualist Individualist:
Jared, once again let me say that I appreciate your efforts to bridge the divide between Red Tories and Western Canadian populist conservatives, but what I keep coming back to is this question of what is and isn't "legitimate" Canadian conservatism. If you were to ask Ron Dart directly "Do you consider Red Toryism the only legitimately Canadian form of conservatism?", what would his answer be? Since you actually interact with him, you'd be in more of a position than I to query him thus. I can certainly tell you though where my money would be on his response.


Sadly, I'm afraid you might be right. I feel the same way about Professor Dart as I do the likes of Linda McQuaig, Mel Hurtig and David Orchard-they all have some very worthwhile and often insightful points to make, but they really hurt themselves with the way they demonize people from other political camps and when they take some of their own political solutions too far . So do some of the populist conservatives out there, but that's another story (see below)...

Individualist Individualist:
So let's say for a minute that I'm correct and his response would be in the affirmative. How then do you reach out to such a person and search for a middle ground? You've attempted something like that in arguing that Preston Manning isn't so different from Dalton Camp, but that's really just sidestepping the legitimacy question by arguing that Western Canadian populist conservatism is just a variant of Upper Canada Red Toryism, and is therefore legitimate by extension.

What I would propose instead is that there are two distinct and legitimate schools of conservative political thought in Canada, each shaped largely by regional forces and traditions and which lived (often uncomfortably) in the same vessel in the form of the oxymoronically named Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.

A major point of contention is the equivalence (or non-equivalence) of the descriptors "right-wing" and "conservative" in a Canadian context. And it is true that the two terms are less synonymous in the Canadian tradition than the American one, though there is still overlap. There is, admittedly, much less overlap between "right-wing" and "tory".


Even if there are two different schools of political thought in Canada, I still believe that they have considerable overlap with one another and share many common views, as I've noted here and elsewhere. I've also noted that one could extend that to all of Canada as a whole-Western Canadian conservatives are just as apt to provide government subsidies to the oil & gas or agricultural industries, for instance, while the NDP has often made an effort to muzzle its far-left contingents, as you note below.

I think you hit it with your noting that regional differences have played a critical role in shaping the different conservative currents in this country. Many Westerners were frustrated by policies tailored to Central Canada which led to western alienation, even as the Westerners themselves often enacted policies in their provinces which in practice weren't all that different from what the Central Canadian practitioners of the Laurentian Consensus were doing.

Individualist Individualist:
How does a right-wing Reform/Alliance conservative though break bread though with someone like Ron Dart when the latter doesn't recognize the former's right to sit at the table? The differences in market/state balance aside, perhaps the fundamental difference between the two traditions is how they view the United States. This undoubtedly has something to do with the fact that the West wasn't as dense with UEL refugees or their descendants as Southern Ontario.

Reform/Alliance conservatives are considered at best excessively pro-American and at worst fifth columnists for American Republicans, but the truth is that it is the Red Tories that are more defined by their traditional (negative) attitude towards the US, as exemplified by Macdonald, Diefenbaker and, more recently, David Orchard. It is their anti-Americanism in fact that has often resulted in Red Tories making common cause with individuals and parties more ideologically to the left, more so than purely economic issues.


As I note above, this is one component of Red Toryism I wouldn't mind seeing put out to pasture once and for all. While I will criticize our southern neighbours when I feel it's warranted, I've also applauded them on the many occasions when I feel they deserve it, too.

And even if I'm decidedly leery of getting too integrated with the U.S., that doesn't prevent me from enjoying many types of American media and having many close American friends.

Your point about Red Tories like David Orchard and Professor Dart attacking Western populist conservatives is well-taken. However, I would add that such chauvinism is a two-way street. Certainly there are conservative commentators like Terrence Corcoran who take pleasure in the seeming demise of Red Toryism and otherwise condemn it. Certainly they don't consider Red Tories to be true conservatives...



"Nations were now formed by the agglomeration of communities having kindred interests and sympathies...It was a benefit rather than otherwise that we had a diversity of races."-Sir George Etienne Cartier, February 7, 1865

"I am a Canadian. Canada is the inspiration of my life. I have had before me as a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day a policy of true Canadianism, of moderation, of conciliation."-Sir Wilfrid Laurier, 1911.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests



cron
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Vive Le Canada.ca. Powered by © phpBB.