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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:45 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:
Oh, Beave's just being silly and hoping you don't notice again.

Socialism is about redistributing the wealth. Capitalism is about creating wealth.

That's basic.

I didn’t knock capitalism, I knocked crony capitalism. The fact that you don’t know the difference is telling.


I know it well enough to know it had nothing to do with the conversation. My point was the "we are Neganites" in the Walking Dead are socialists.

They represent what passes for a government. They are about taxing the producers and redistributing the wealth. They redistribute it to themselves and to the labor force they've scooped up to support their infrastructure.

Now if you as a progressive who appears to be 'progressing' down the socialist highway heading farther and farther left (or what I call a Progressive Socialist) are wanting to emphasize with something other than the 'We are Neganites' or WaNs I'm going to smile.

Oh, and the women in the van most likely will be back. They said they would be. And yeah, they might turn out to be the closest thing to capitalists in the Deadverse so far.



Oh so where’s the minimum wage increases, Unionized workforce, Scandinavian-style generous social benefits and gender equality initiatives?

Negan is a slave-driving neoliberal robber barron where workers are forced to toil at the boss’s whim with no rights and face the extreme consequences when their efforts displease their boss.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:30 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Negan is a slave-driving neoliberal robber baron where workers are forced to toil at the boss’s whim with no rights and face the extreme consequences when their efforts displease their boss.


Not according to him.

According to him he's a "Saviour." He's saving people by taxing them 50% of their wealth and redistributing it so the Saviours can protect them.

He's no part of a Neoliberal. He can't be a "Robber Baron." He's government not business. The 'We are Negan' group is the governing authority of the area.

You might be able to call what he does some kind of Protection Racket but you might be able to call government the same thing.

You appeared worried about the absence of social programs. What is the sort of thing Maduro is doing in Venezuela that you think Negan should be doing to meet the definition of a socialist? Isn't Negan in charge of where the medical staff of the territory goes? When health services are limited you have to do what you can with what you have. Ask Nicolas


Last edited by N_Fiddledog on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:45 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
Negan is a slave-driving neoliberal robber baron where workers are forced to toil at the boss’s whim with no rights and face the extreme consequences when their efforts displease their boss.


Not according to him.

According to him he's a "Saviour." He's saving people by taxing them 50% of their wealth and redistributing it so the Saviours can protect them.

He's no part of a Neoliberal. He can't be a "Robber Baron." He's government. The 'We are Negan' group is the governing authority of the area.

You might be able to call what he does some kind of Protection Racket but you might be able to call government the same thing.


Let’s just say he’s a totalitarian and leave it at that. He’s certainly not a “progressive liberal“

But we found what happened to the Bush supporters:

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:49 pm
 


I didn't say he was a progressive liberal. I said he was a progressive socialist.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:19 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
I didn't say he was a progressive liberal. I said he was a progressive socialist.

Like the scandinavian countries?

There’s nothing progressive about him.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:00 pm
 


Negan steals at will and has a heavily armed apparatus of killers to protect him therefore he's a capitalist. As China proves every day you don't need freedom or a free market to have capitalism - all you need are enough goons and a willingness to pillage everything you set your eyes on. What you end up with, in pure capitalist fashion, is a figurative pipeline where the flow of riches and resources goes upwards only, taken from a growing pool of downtrodden who are too scared to fight back. Or who have had their value system warped from living too long in a state of constant daily terror and end up worshiping the so-called "Saviour" that's kinda-sorta protecting them from the Hobbesian "state of nature" of the outer world from obliterating them.

Thieves and gangsters have been and always will be the ultimate expression of pure capitalism. Human history from beginning to end bears this out.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:43 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
Negan steals at will and has a heavily armed apparatus of killers to protect him therefore he's a capitalist. As China proves every day you don't need freedom or a free market to have capitalism - all you need are enough goons and a willingness to pillage everything you set your eyes on. What you end up with, in pure capitalist fashion, is a figurative pipeline where the flow of riches and resources goes upwards only, taken from a growing pool of downtrodden who are too scared to fight back. Or who have had their value system warped from living too long in a state of constant daily terror and end up worshiping the so-called "Saviour" that's kinda-sorta protecting them from the Hobbesian "state of nature" of the outer world from obliterating them.

Thieves and gangsters have been and always will be the ultimate expression of pure capitalism. Human history from beginning to end bears this out.



Russia is another good example of a capitalist dictatorship. China is ruled by a party. Russia is the cult of Putin so IMO more negan-like


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:12 pm
 


Ditto with the US because they've been playing with idolatry when it comes to the "great men" of capitalism for most of their history. That most of the great men, from Carnegie through to Rockefeller down to Zuckerberg, get their status through development of monopolies seems to get lost along the way. Negan's just a more obvious example of that inside every great capitalist is a racketeer waiting to get out. He's not obsessed with greed and acquisition of baubles as his prime motivations as much as he is with exerting control over everyone else, hence his own monopoly of "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too". That control fetish is so common among capitalists that it should be seen as an obvious marker of that particular megalomaniacal/monopolist personality disorder.

None of this has anything to do with the free barter arrangements the communities could have made among themselves if Negan's monopolist protection racket. If the women at Oceanside had traded, say, a supply of fish in exchange for getting some blacksmithing work done by the Hilltop then that would have been the free market in action, with congratulations due to the entrepreneur who put the plan together. What Negan does though? Nah, that's just robbery legitimized by a monopoly of force, something that capitalists in the real world also aspire to, and merrily engage in doing in those places unfortunate enough to not have some system of regulation to keep the average guy safe from the bosses.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:29 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:
I didn't say he was a progressive liberal. I said he was a progressive socialist.

Like the scandinavian countries?

There’s nothing progressive about him.


I'm pretty sure "progressive socialism" is my term so no sense in pretending you can define it.

Just ask.

Here ya go...

So I look around I see people self-identifying as progressive or labeling movements as progressive and I see the sorts who filter in and around those movements. I call them Progs or Progressives.

Now these progs are progressing incrementally in a political right to left direction but they appear to have an end goal of authoritarian global socialism. In order to get there, it appears necessary to degrade, deconstruct, and deteriorate society as they find it. They call this regression progression.

It involves a deconstruction of standards moving power to new favored groups in statist socialist stacks under an overwatch they call "intersectionalism."

They appear to think of this "progression" as a journey to some sort of socialist utopia. I believe they believe they are "saving" the rest of us. In fantasy progworld they're "saviors" you see.

In fact the impatience they seem to exhibit towards the rest of us for not realizing we're being "saved" seems very Neganesque.

.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:39 pm
 


Nonsense. All Negan is doing is thriving by the basic rules of the world after the veneer of civilization got ripped away by the zombie apocalypse. Cruel, unforgiving of the weak, a paradise for the merciless and the rabidly vicious. How at it's core is the world of Negan really any different than the previous world ruled by the predatory bankers and the anarcho-capitalists? If anything, for all his own bullshit about "providing a service" and "getting shit done", Negan's more honest about what he is than any capitalist has ever been.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:56 pm
 


Negan can't be a capitalist because there is no economy. There is no trade. The communities would have liked some but Negan negated that possibility by taking control of any excess wealth. Like a socialist. A democratic socialist builds on a foundation of capitalism but Negan's brand is more pure.

He is the government, such as it is. In his mind he is for sure. In his mind he controls the means of production. Like a socialist. Is there Private Property? Not in an end goal socialist state and not as far as Negan is concerned. A community's ultimate purpose is to serve the state of 'we are Negan.'

So a socialist state does exist at least in Negan's mind. To what extent will he be able to enforce that state on the communities? We will see.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:36 pm
 


However, one might think of the Deadverse as being in a formative political state.

If everybody is Negan and an elite at the top decides who gets what and who does what then yeah, that's socialism.

Right now though there's a rebellion.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:55 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
So you’re telling me the infirmary has no security measures in case one of the patients dies and turns into a zombie? Didn’t they already learn this lesson in season 4 during the deadly swine flu epidemic that swept through the prison and they started keeping the patients in separate locked cells? Also there are no guards on duty the night after a major attack?


Common sense isn't all that common in Hollywood or in real life.

Things I cringe at when I watch TV/movies:

1. A character is being chased by someone who has a gun. The bad guy gets knocked down or even disabled and drops the gun. The idiot character neglects to take the gun away so when the bad guy gets up to chase them again he's still armed.

2. A really bad guy (Negan) doesn't get killed by a determined shooter. Any halfwit military strategist knows that a charismatic leader like this isn't only your first target, he's your ONLY target. Kill him and his organization of thugs will turn on itself.

3. Plot holes like you mentioned.

4. There's a bazillion military installations around Virginia and the best weaponry anyone can scare up is a few forty year old .50 cal machine guns?

5. Zombies are easily attracted, they're stupid, and will walk into meat grinders. Yet no one will start wiping them out on an industrial scale. :roll:



If you want a more realistic view of how the government, military and law enforcement might approach a zombie apocalypse, I suggest reading Zombie CSU by Jonathan Maberry:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3098357-zombie-csu


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:29 am
 


bootlegga wrote:
If you want a more realistic view of how the government, military and law enforcement might approach a zombie apocalypse, I suggest reading Zombie CSU by Jonathan Maberry:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3098357-zombie-csu



Thank you! That looks awesome! R=UP


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:11 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
As government facilities that are under super-heavy security due to terrorist threats a lot of the nuke plants could have been shut down safely before being overwhelmed by the undead, or even conceivably still on line if enough well-supplied military and police personnel had rallied to them as a future base of operations. But enough of them definitely would have melted down. Same with commercial chemical plants as well. When the power failed and the cooling systems went down the chemical plants would have gone off like bombs, blowing apart entire industrial areas in cities. And those that didn't explode would have permanently contaminated wide areas to the point where it would be quick death from exposure just from walking through them. For a few years from the starting point of the apocalypse just breathing the air in certain areas, depending on the prevailing wind patterns, would be a death sentence because it takes time for nature to wash all that crap away in the absence of a co-ordinated human effort to clean it up.

This sounds like what should have happened yet it hasn't. As for Negan he's a former phys-ed teacher who intimidated students with Lucille.


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