[roger-roger]

$1:

Rev? Yoo hoo Rev. You out there Rev? Where'd you go?

This topic should be right up his alley but his team got spanked and we probably won't see him until the next election.

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/post1347506#p1347506

[2Cdo]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

$1:

Rev? Yoo hoo Rev. You out there Rev? Where'd you go?

This topic should be right up his alley but his team got spanked and we probably won't see him until the next election.

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/post1347506#p1347506

That makes sense, go back to his haven of perpetual losers.

[Caelon]

This discussion comes up around every election and is usually pushed forward by voters who do not feel that FPTP system will ever allow enough elected officials that represent their point of view to have an impact on legislation. If you were an NDP supporter you could look back at several Liberal minority governments and see the impact the party had only to find themselves isolated when the Liberal party had a majority.

Proportional representation is a concept that seeks to address voters who fell disenfranchised. The problem is if you put 20 different people in a room you will have 20 different views on how to structure the rules to be 'fair'. Let's take the simple version proposed at the beginning of the thread to weigh the pros and cons.

The immediate advantage for a non separatist is the Bloc would have fewer seats.
But who would take the seats for each party? Would it be the longest term party faithful get the first nods regardless of how bad they are and then gradually work down to the newcomers? How long would you have to be a candidate in waiting to be elected?

What about regional views? If the long term party faithful get the first seats, isn’t possible that whole regions would have no representatives? The BC proposal tries to address the issue of regional representation and makes it possible for new comers.

As others have suggested a simple arithmetic encourages fringe groups to field candidates as they will be able to get one or two in the house. We might see the Rhinoceros party come back to life. It is very possible that we could have as many as 10 parties with at least 1 representative in the House of Commons. That thought alone scares me away from proportional representation.

[HyperionTheEvil]

Canadaka Canadaka:

I am on the fence about Proportional Representation i could be swayed either way. Here is some info.

$1:

If we had proportional representation the break down would have looked something like this:

There were 13,832,972 votes cast.
Divided by 308 seats available
Equals 44912 votes per seat

Bloc 1,379,565 votes = 31 seats
Conservative 5,205,334 votes = 116 seats
Green Party 940,747 votes = 21 seats
Independent 89,524 votes = 2 seats
Liberal 3,629,990 votes = 81 seats
NDP 2,517,075 votes =56 seats

=307 seats
The last seat would depend on the system of proportional representation Canada voted for. It would in all likely hood also go to the Conservatives.

Right now the break down is like this:

Bloc: 50 seats
Conservative: 143 seats
Independent: 2 seats
Liberal: 76 seats
NDP: 37 seats

Seems fair to me. And one of the criticisms is not being locally represented, but i dont think its very strong arguement. How often does your Local MP actualy bring up local issues in Ottawa and how often do they vote any different than the party as a whole, not very.


BC is having a 2nd vote on wether to adopt an STV system, which could pave the way for the rest of Canada.
http://www.fairvote.ca/en/bc-electoral- ... ay-12-2009

$1:

On May 12, 2009, British Columbians will vote again on whether to adopt the BC-STV system proposed by their Citizens’ Assembly. In the 2005 referendum, nearly 58% voted Yes. This time, we’re very well positioned to exceed the 60% threshold.

More info: http://www.stv.ca/join

They have a nice flash animation that really explains how the system works
http://www.stv.ca/watch

It's funny how a losing party always thinks this is a good idea

[DrCaleb]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

It's funny how a losing party always thinks this is a good idea

It's funnier that the majority of people who voted aren't represented by the party they voted for.

13 million voters (pathetic) but the 5 million who voted for Conservatives are the government, and 8 million are not. The NDP for example got double the number of votes, but 4/5 the seats of the Bloc.

The minority rules, and that's what people want changed.

[HyperionTheEvil]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

It's funny how a losing party always thinks this is a good idea

It's funnier that the majority of people who voted aren't represented by the party they voted for.

13 million voters (pathetic) but the 5 million who voted for Conservatives are the government, and 8 million are not. The NDP for example got double the number of votes, but 4/5 the seats of the Bloc.

The minority rules, and that's what people want changed.

no, thats what you want chagned, at least accoding to your perspective of it.

Here's a better solution, have the left try covince a majority Canadians that they can be trusted running the government. So far you guys fail badly

[dino_bobba_renno]

Someone enlighten me here please, what are the diffrences between STV (the only stv I know is a Scottish television network) and propotional rep. And no I'm not being sacastic, I seriously don't know and I'm too damn lazy to look it up.

One other problem I can see with PR is that Quebec would s$#@ a brick if it ever happened. I don't think Ontario would be far behind them either. I can't imagine either of those provinces letting go of the stangle hold they have on the rest of Canada willingly.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Someone enlighten me here please, what are the diffrences between STV (the only stv I know is a Scottish television network) and propotional rep. And no I'm not being sacastic, I seriously don't know and I'm too damn lazy to look it up.

One other problem I can see with PR is that Quebec would s$#@ a brick if it ever happened. I don't think Ontario would be far behind them either. I can't imagine either of those provinces letting go of the stangle hold they have on the rest of Canada willingly.

Ontario and Alberta are the only provinces currently under represented in seats per population. Quebec about equal I think.

Ontario would love PR. We would hold even more of a balance of power and the stronghold and population dense GTA region would certainly be beneficial to the Liberals.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Someone enlighten me here please, what are the diffrences between STV (the only stv I know is a Scottish television network) and propotional rep. And no I'm not being sacastic, I seriously don't know and I'm too damn lazy to look it up.

One other problem I can see with PR is that Quebec would s$#@ a brick if it ever happened. I don't think Ontario would be far behind them either. I can't imagine either of those provinces letting go of the stangle hold they have on the rest of Canada willingly.

Ontario and Alberta are the only provinces currently under represented in seats per population. Quebec about equal I think.

Ontario would love PR. We would hold even more of a balance of power and the stronghold and population dense GTA region would certainly be beneficial to the Liberals.

They would love it so long as the Conservatives are in powe. If the Liberals stood to lose seats, say even surrender a majority because of it I could definately see them them having a problem with it.

I should clarify here, Quebecers who support the Bloc would definately be on the losing end imo. Under the current set up the Bloc would have lost close to 20 seats.

[DerbyX]

The Bloc would have lost seats but not Quebec. Given that the popular vote share for the Libs has carried the day before I don't think they will fear it. They lost seats because of vote splitting.

The other unmentioned factor is that under a different political system people will vote differently because they will want a different result.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The Bloc would have lost seats but not Quebec. Given that the popular vote share for the Libs has carried the day before I don't think they will fear it. They lost seats because of vote splitting.

The other unmentioned factor is that under a different political system people will vote differently because they will want a different result.

Like I said Derb, it would all be fun and games until a PR system cost the Liberals a majority.

PR systems are famous for electing minorities.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The Bloc would have lost seats but not Quebec. Given that the popular vote share for the Libs has carried the day before I don't think they will fear it. They lost seats because of vote splitting.

The other unmentioned factor is that under a different political system people will vote differently because they will want a different result.

Like I said Derb, it would all be fun and games until a PR system cost the Liberals a majority.

PR systems are famous for electing minorities.

You are assuming the bulk of PR supporters are Liberals rather then NDP, Greens, and conservatives who remember sitting on the sidelines of the entire Chretien era.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The Bloc would have lost seats but not Quebec. Given that the popular vote share for the Libs has carried the day before I don't think they will fear it. They lost seats because of vote splitting.

The other unmentioned factor is that under a different political system people will vote differently because they will want a different result.

Like I said Derb, it would all be fun and games until a PR system cost the Liberals a majority.

PR systems are famous for electing minorities.

You are assuming the bulk of PR supporters are Liberals rather then NDP, Greens, and conservatives who remember sitting on the sidelines of the entire Chretien era.

Well I don't remember much being mentioned from the Liberal supporters at the time about the dire need for PR back then.

Question, not just to you but everyone, Trev broke down the party standings according to the current 4 party system plus independents. Under PR wouldn't parties like Christian Heritage, Marxist-Leninist, Libertarian and Progressive Canadian parties (just to name a few) stand to win to some seats?

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Well I don't remember much being mentioned from the Liberal supporters at the time about the dire need for PR back then.

Question, not just to you but everyone, Trev broke down the party standings according to the current 4 party system plus independents. Under PR wouldn't parties like Christian Heritage, Marxist-Leninist, Libertarian and Progressive Canadian parties (just to name a few) stand to win to some seats?

I think they simply win to few votes. They certainly wouldn't win anymore then 1 or 2 which is hardly enough to make any difference.

One thing I bet most people haven't thought of (which I just did after listening to starcraft the evil) is that since winning a majority means getting >50% of the votes, parties are far more likely to make govt work knowing that unless they actually show results they won't gain in support.

Look at our current situation. The election is barely over and already the extremists cons are calling for Harper to ram legislature through with the intention of daring the opposition to topple them rather then working with them.

Thats dysfunctional govt. I don't think that would happen in PR/STV because no party will believe they can increase their vote share by the 10-20% they would need to get a majority. Right now we have the real possibility of going to another election in a year with the cons holding a false sense of security. Given that the Libs can't get any worse and the CPC can't get any better we'll be hitting the snooze alarm yet again.

[HyperionTheEvil]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Well I don't remember much being mentioned from the Liberal supporters at the time about the dire need for PR back then.

Question, not just to you but everyone, Trev broke down the party standings according to the current 4 party system plus independents. Under PR wouldn't parties like Christian Heritage, Marxist-Leninist, Libertarian and Progressive Canadian parties (just to name a few) stand to win to some seats?

I think they simply win to few votes. They certainly wouldn't win anymore then 1 or 2 which is hardly enough to make any difference.

One thing I bet most people haven't thought of (which I just did after listening to starcraft the evil) is that since winning a majority means getting >50% of the votes, parties are far more likely to make govt work knowing that unless they actually show results they won't gain in support.

Look at our current situation. The election is barely over and already the extremists cons are calling for Harper to ram legislature through with the intention of daring the opposition to topple them rather then working with them.

Thats dysfunctional govt. I don't think that would happen in PR/STV because no party will believe they can increase their vote share by the 10-20% they would need to get a majority. Right now we have the real possibility of going to another election in a year with the cons holding a false sense of security. Given that the Libs can't get any worse and the CPC can't get any better we'll be hitting the snooze alarm yet again.

Party on topic here

No its democracy, a democracy in a monorty government. And for the record the CPC party doesnt have the ability to 'ram' anything through. They can and will put up any legislation they see fit. It's now a question as to whether the left will stand by thier pricinciples or bucklu under like they have been

The 'sense' the CPC has is that more people voted them more seats than the Liberals and for the record the CPC has gotten better and the Libs worse