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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:56 am
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
romanP wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:
Sharia is an enemy ideology to Western society. As is Jihadism of the sword, Hijra, and taqiyya fueled fifth columnists. In fact political Islam as was preached in Medina and authorized by abrogation of the spiritual Islam of Mecca is an enemy ideology to the values of the West.


if you had any idea what you're talking about, you would see that this is not actually a bad thing.


Guess he should have scraped the mold off of his dumpster donair better.


you seem to be obsessed with food coming from dumpsters. i know everyone has a weird fetish, but that really takes the cake.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:55 am
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:
What I said was -

N_Fiddledog wrote:
Western values including secularism and humanism evolved out of Judaeo/Christian systems.


I can't even take credit for it. It's a thing one hears from reading about here and there.


But there's nothing in the bible or the Torah that naturally leads to secularism, so why bring it up? Gay porn and Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo also evolved out of Judeo Christian systems but that is an irrelevant fact because there's nothing in the religion that natrually leads to the latter.

Historical events came to pass that lead to the Enlightening, which just happened to be in lands that were also Christian (again, the "Judeo" doesn't apply).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:04 am
 


andyt wrote:
Secularism and humanism evolved out of Christianity, because of its focus on individual salvation and Christ's teaching about even the "lowest" being worthy. (Contrast that to the Pharisees of his time and the concept of the people Jesus was hanging with being unclean.) It got a further boost after the black death, because labor was in such short supply, employers actually had to start treating their workforce better if they hoped to have one. Finally it grew out of the scientific advancements being made during the enlightenment. But obviously secularism has left Christianity and any other dogmatic religion far behind, and now is in conflict with Christianity as much as other religions.



Should also be pointed out, as secularism grew in christian countries it influenced Christianity. I don't think it's an accident that the vast majority of western Christians are extremely tolerant of other religious views. There are exceptions of course, but I can't remember the last time we had a religious riot here in Edmonton.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:17 am
 


andyt wrote:
Secularism and humanism evolved out of Christianity, because of its focus on individual salvation and Christ's teaching about even the "lowest" being worthy.


But secularism came along so much later than Christianity, you can't possible say they are hand in hand. Secularism arose from the Scientific Revolution. And humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islamic world before it took root in Europe.

It's also not true that are "NO" minority rights in "EVERY" Muslim country. Although they are certain degraded right now, Egypt, Iraq, Syria to name a few, have some provisions.

But the whole thing is a red herring because the polices of a state and the policies of the people who leave that state would not necessarily need to be the same and would logically be different. Would a Harperite Conservative who flees Liberal Canada to live in Texas have to answer for Justin Trudeau's policies? Could you see some Texan saying "This Canuck doesn't want to pay high taxes but Canada has high taxes, so he's a hypocrite".


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:23 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Well, generally it's considered a moot point because:


From elections Canada:


1) There's no law requiring photo ID to vote anyway so requiring someone to show their face doesn't mean much if you don't have a photo to compare with the face.
This. Here is a list of items that qualify as ID, of which you only need 2 to vote:

Quote:
2) Show two pieces of ID

At least one must have your current address

health card
Canadian passport
birth certificate
certificate of Canadian citizenship
citizenship card
social insurance number card
Indian status card
band membership card
Métis card

card issued by an Inuit local authority
Canadian Forces identity card
Veterans Affairs health card
old age security card
hospital card

medical clinic card
label on a prescription container
identity bracelet issued by a hospital or long-term care facility
blood donor card
CNIB card
credit card
debit card
employee card
student identity card
public transportation card

library card
liquor identity card
parolee card
firearms licence
licence or card issued for fishing, trapping or hunting
utility bill (e.g. electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
bank statement
credit union statement
credit card statement
personal cheque
government statement of benefits
government cheque or cheque stub
pension plan statement
residential lease or sub-lease
mortgage contract or statement
income tax assessment
property tax assessment or evaluation
vehicle ownership
insurance certificate, policy or statement
correspondence issued by a school, college or university
letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
targeted revision form from Elections Canada to residents of long-term care facilities
letter of confirmation of residence from a First Nations band or reserve or an Inuit local authority
letter of confirmation of residence, letter of stay, admission form or statement of benefits from one of the following designated establishments:
student residence
seniors' residence
long-term care facility
shelter
soup kitchen


http://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?s ... dex&lang=e

The items in bold do not have a picture, wherein a hijab makes zero difference. Just another opportunity to slag minorities.


Last edited by Delwin on Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:29 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:27 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
andyt wrote:
Secularism and humanism evolved out of Christianity, because of its focus on individual salvation and Christ's teaching about even the "lowest" being worthy.


But secularism came along so much later than Christianity, you can't possible say they are hand in hand. Secularism arose from the Scientific Revolution. And humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islamic world before it took root in Europe.



Probably better to address my whole point instead of just a part of it. I covered what you are saying here in the latter part of my paragraph. I said secularism evolved out of Christianity, didn't go hand in hand in it.

If humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islam, it it seems to have devolved now. Even a Sufi leader expressed sympathy for 911 - I couldn't believe that, I thought they were much more tolerant. The Alawites and Ismaili seem to be pretty tolerant, but then they are a small minority. That's like saying that medieval Islamic science was more advanced than Christian. Sure, but what have they done lately? Islam has a big problem, I don't think any fair minded person can deny that.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:39 am
 


Quote:
If humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islam, it it seems to have devolved now.

Definitely, but these values never stay buried for long. Cultures go through cycles of ignorance and enlightenment.

My point is only that Christianity is not the source of all good in the world. Rather, distancing oneself from religion (any religion) is the way to go.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:40 am
 


Unsound wrote:
andyt wrote:
Secularism and humanism evolved out of Christianity, because of its focus on individual salvation and Christ's teaching about even the "lowest" being worthy. (Contrast that to the Pharisees of his time and the concept of the people Jesus was hanging with being unclean.) It got a further boost after the black death, because labor was in such short supply, employers actually had to start treating their workforce better if they hoped to have one. Finally it grew out of the scientific advancements being made during the enlightenment. But obviously secularism has left Christianity and any other dogmatic religion far behind, and now is in conflict with Christianity as much as other religions.



Should also be pointed out, as secularism grew in christian countries it influenced Christianity. I don't think it's an accident that the vast majority of western Christians are extremely tolerant of other religious views. There are exceptions of course, but I can't remember the last time we had a religious riot here in Edmonton.



Europe, sure. In the US the fundies are a significant force that can pass all sorts of idiotic laws like women having to be probed before having an abortion. If for some reason they ever achieve a majority, it won't be fun down there either. Then there's the African and other third world Christians.

But absolutely. If Christianity had not already become more tolerant in Europe, the enlightenment would not have happened, would have gone the way science did in Islam.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:42 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Quote:
If humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islam, it it seems to have devolved now.

Definitely, but these values never stay buried for long. Cultures go through cycles of ignorance and enlightenment.

My point is only that Christianity is not the source of all good in the world. Rather, distancing oneself from religion (any religion) is the way to go.


Hope you didn't find it necessary to make that point with me. Any religion has positive and negative aspects. Distancing yourself from religious dogma and insularity is the way to go, but it's not necessary to distance oneself totally from religion. Lots of enlightened thinkers in religion, some even within Islam, just more suppressed there. Lots of secular morons as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:58 am
 


Tip of the Iceberg


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:14 am
 


As boorish as Christians can be they're no where near as deeply trapped in a totalitarian mindset as Muslims are. For example, for all the Kim Davis' and mental midget GOP candidates that are out there, they aren't doing things like maintaining a hit list of atheists to murder. Nor do the courts in places like the US, as batshit as some of the judges can be, do things like sentence someone to have their hands cut off for blasphemy.

This is why in the long run there is no hope for Muslims. Their period of social and cultural advancement happened centuries ago, after they absorbed what was remained of what the Greeks and Romans left behind in North Africa and Asia Minor, but it's long since died out. As long as the religion controls the state there will be no enlightenment. Just the same thing every day. God is great, but human life is cheap. And don't step out of line, ever, because you know what's coming for you if you do.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:19 am
 


The only quarrel I have with your post is that I personally know lots of Muslims who are no less enlightened than the rest of us.

Not all Muslims are fundamentalists or Islamists.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:30 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
The only quarrel I have with your post is that I personally know lots of Muslims who are no less enlightened than the rest of us.

Not all Muslims are fundamentalists or Islamists.


It doesn't matter how many individuals might be enlightened. Not when the religion controls the state to such a massive degree. And not when the Islamic state is more than willing to employ wide-scale medieval brutality in order to maintain absolute control of every single aspect of every single Muslim's daily life. It's got to be like living under an Inquistional regime except this time the inquistioners are armed with modern military equipment that the Americans and Russians have been giving to them willy-nilly for the last sixty years.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:33 am
 


It matters when you're attempting to treat those enlightened Muslims the same as if they're members of ISIS


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:11 am
 


Bringing the niqab to Canada isn't enlightened. It's primitive and atavistic.


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