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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:15 pm
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: 20110712 (click to view)
Date: July 12, 2011
Regardless of what you think of the man, or the party he leads, it's very difficult to deny that Republican House Speaker John Boehner has simply been a better negotiator during this current round of debt ceiling negotiations.

While the Democrats, led by President Obama, have consistently pleaded, in increasingly fevered terms, that an increase to the ceiling must be passed by Congress this summer lest the United States be forced to default, and all manner of calamity ensue, the Republicans have countered with cool indifference. It's not that they necessarily want a default any more than the Dems do; they simply refuse to entertain the idea at all. From their perspective, there is no automatic cause-and-effect. Raising the debt ceiling is bad because it justifies Uncle Sam's further spending of borrowed money. End of story. Or at least the last page they want to read.

John Dickerson over at Slate estimates that about a third of Republicans in the House of Representatives they control will simply never vote for an increase in the debt ceiling under any circumstances, and that another third of the caucus is very much on the fence. When you contrast this to the Democrats, who are 100% in favor of a raise, it's not hard to realize why the former party has the upper hand. And since appeals to fear clearly won't get them moving, the only solution is for the President to negotiate a tit-for-tat legislative compromise, almost entirely on the Republicans' terms.

In theory, it's not terribly hard to arrange what the Republicans say they want from any debt ceiling deal — namely an end to the federal government's perpetual debt addiction. Simply raise taxes, cut spending, and watch an increase in revenue and a decrease in expenditures solve the problem. But of course Republicans don't want tax raises, any taxes raises, for anyone, ever, which leaves only the cutting. "Cuts or nothing" has been the Republican mantra, and since the party seems equally prepared to tolerate either outcome, the Democrats find themselves bullied into a tight corner before talks even begin.

The cleverest response the Dems can muster at this point is deception. If they can offer a deal with enough spending cuts to look significant, yet not be deep enough to be too consequential, and enough tax tweaks to offer plausible deniability that they're actually raising taxes, the Republicans might be mollified enough to pass it. This seems to be the plan at present. In order to achieve around $2.5 trillion in deficit reductions over the next decade, Democrats have said they will agree to cut spending for a variety of their beloved executive branch programs, but spare social security and medicare. They'll then drum up some modest increases in revenue though the not-quite-a-tax-hike tactic of closing several tax loopholes and tax breaks, mostly those presently employed by folks at the highest point of the income pyramid (for instance, curbing existing tax breaks offered to jet and yacht owners).

Obviously this plan doesn't go nearly far enough in the eyes of many Republicans, both in terms of the amount of money saved and the ferocity of the cuts. It's likewise still a fairly open question as to whether or not the closing tax loopholes and scaling back tax credits will sufficiently appease anti-tax fundamentalists, who have made solemn pledges not to vote for anything even resembling a hike, regardless of who it affects.

Regardless, it seems that Boehner is prepared to test his luck, and push ahead with a "good enough" deal sooner, rather than later. "Despite the tougher talk, aides say behind closed doors the tone in the White House meetings has been frank and constructive" says FOX, and many Washington insiders are speculating that an arrangement is only days away. Others, however, aren't willing to take any chances. A letter signed by representatives of hundreds of leading US corporations and the US Chamber of Commerce arrived in the mailboxes of Congress and the White House today, warning that a "default would risk both disarray in those markets and a host of unintended consequences."

In his heart, Boehner clearly believes them. But in the American system of legislative democracy, the buck ultimately stops with the House itself. And it remains to be seen if its members can be persuaded by argument alone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:34 pm
 


I disagree. The GOP is holding all the cards yes, but it's the same scenario as a mafia protection racket: "Nice country. Shame if something were to happen to its economy..."

There's no superior bargaining being done by Boehner, he's just holding until Obama caves. But Obama isn't going to cave. I truly believe that by August 2, the GOP will have caved.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:58 pm
 


If this is a GOP victory it's totally Pyrrhic in nature. "Oh, yay, we won! It looks like a nuke went off and left nothing standing and nobody alive but, yay, we still won!".

President Obama has to call their bluff. No more negotiating at all with that collection of Randian lunatics. Shut down the government if neccessary, but call it already and get it over with. And then ramp up the vitiriol by about 1000% and never make a public statement about the crisis without including in every second sentence that the TeaParty/GOP is absolutely and completely responsible and guilty for every negative aspect of it.

It's called war. The TeaParty/GOP declared it in 2008. It's almost 3 years past due that the President recognized it for what it is, and to relentlessly start dropping nukes of his own. Do that for the next 16 months and let the electorate decide in November of next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:54 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
let the electorate decide in November of next year.


You really only needed to say this.

A few things though.

1) It takes about $20 billion per month to pay the US debt. Current tax revenues bring in $200 billion. I think they can cover the debt. The real problem is the spending and that somehow 12 months x $180 million (ie $2.16 TRILLION ANNUALLY) is not enough for the people in Washington to maintain a sane budget.

2) Obama said today he could not guarantee that seniors would get their checks on 8/3 if the ceiling were not increased. That's absolutely vile, and should be used against Obama every chance the GOP gets, since it would be Obama deciding that bureaucrats were more deserving to be paid than the elderly that were deceived into making themselves dependent on the government, and that Obama would be the *real* reason that your grandmother might have to eat dog food.

3) Mitch McConell sounds like he's going to cave on the Senate side, so this whole damn topic could be moot anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:15 am
 


I think the Republicans are missing an opportunity here - I believe simplification of the tax code could garner broad-based support, so if the Republicans could develop a proposal which would close loopholes and lower rates in addition to major budget cuts, they could really drive the argument.

But I can't really recall seeing a consistent message or concrete proposal from either side since Ryan's Path to Prosperity. I can find little notes here and there about trying this or that, but no strong message.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:12 am
 


Teikiatsu wrote:
Thanos wrote:
let the electorate decide in November of next year.



3) Mitch McConell sounds like he's going to cave on the Senate side, so this whole damn topic could be moot anyway.



McConnell has been a gigantic disappointment ever since 2006.

But we Kentuckians made up for it by voting in Rand Paul.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:32 am
 


I would say you made it worse.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:37 am
 


Thanos wrote:
If this is a GOP victory it's totally Pyrrhic in nature. "Oh, yay, we won! It looks like a nuke went off and left nothing standing and nobody alive but, yay, we still won!".

President Obama has to call their bluff. No more negotiating at all with that collection of Randian lunatics. Shut down the government if neccessary, but call it already and get it over with. And then ramp up the vitiriol by about 1000% and never make a public statement about the crisis without including in every second sentence that the TeaParty/GOP is absolutely and completely responsible and guilty for every negative aspect of it.

It's called war. The TeaParty/GOP declared it in 2008. It's almost 3 years past due that the President recognized it for what it is, and to relentlessly start dropping nukes of his own. Do that for the next 16 months and let the electorate decide in November of next year.


R=UP +1


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:38 am
 


Pseudonym wrote:
the Republicans could develop a proposal which would close loopholes and lower rates in addition to major budget cuts
I'm all for major budget cuts and closing loopholes, but as much as I despise taxes it's really horrible timing to lower tax rates while we have trillion dollar annual deficits.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:43 am
 


Thanos wrote:
If this is a GOP victory it's totally Pyrrhic in nature. "Oh, yay, we won! It looks like a nuke went off and left nothing standing and nobody alive but, yay, we still won!".

President Obama has to call their bluff. No more negotiating at all with that collection of Randian lunatics. Shut down the government if neccessary, but call it already and get it over with. And then ramp up the vitiriol by about 1000% and never make a public statement about the crisis without including in every second sentence that the TeaParty/GOP is absolutely and completely responsible and guilty for every negative aspect of it.

It's called war. The TeaParty/GOP declared it in 2008. It's almost 3 years past due that the President recognized it for what it is, and to relentlessly start dropping nukes of his own. Do that for the next 16 months and let the electorate decide in November of next year.


The Demoncrats are wienies that won't stand up for their own beliefs. We've seen it time and time again both with congress and with Obama. They'll cave on this one too and vote for the neocon agenda.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:45 am
 


Psudo wrote:
Pseudonym wrote:
the Republicans could develop a proposal which would close loopholes and lower rates in addition to major budget cuts
I'm all for major budget cuts and closing loopholes, but as much as I despise taxes it's really horrible timing to lower tax rates while we have trillion dollar annual deficits.


I thought it was a matter of just not letting tax cuts expire - ie not lowering, just not raising?

You guys need to do both - raise income and cut spending. Good luck with that. I read somewhere that no leader in a modern democracy has been able to cut spending.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:33 am
 


Teikiatsu wrote:
since it would be Obama deciding that bureaucrats were more deserving to be paid .


Deserving to be paid? If they did the work then they are owed the money, Deserving has nothing to do with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:37 am
 


Cut Medicare. Obama could say that he's become a teabagger convert and is keeping his government hands off their medicare.

Better yet, cut pay and pensions and expenses to congress.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:43 am
 


I think the "lowering or not raising" issue is secondary to the effect on revenue -- revenues shouldn't be lowered when spending is so dramatically high, probably impossible to cut, and tax rates are already relatively low.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I think it makes more sense to negotiate an exchange rate -- "We'll allow $X in tax increases in exchange for $Y in spending cuts." Maybe include some trade of defense spending cuts for welfare spending cuts, too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:50 am
 


Psudo wrote:
I think the "lowering or not raising" issue is secondary to the effect on revenue -- revenues shouldn't be lowered when spending is so dramatically high, probably impossible to cut, and tax rates are already relatively low.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I think it makes more sense to negotiate an exchange rate -- "We'll allow $X in tax increases in exchange for $Y in spending cuts." Maybe include some trade of defense spending cuts for welfare spending cuts, too.


Then you're over with the Demoncrats, since that is what Obamas proposal is. Heavily biased towards cuts rather than increase taxes. But the Repulsicons are having none of it.


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