[terran1212]

"This is more or less how I spent my Canada Day. I saw \"Sicko\" but it raised more questions than answers. It was really my first glimpse of the US healthcare system in any detail, but I know better than to give Michael Moore the benefit of the doubt.

I am sure it will be a popular movie in Canada, however, as it reaffirms our worst fears about what goes on in the United States. The portrayal of Canada is utopian to the point of fraud, however. Even the most rabidly anti-American Canadian will have to squirm in his seat when Moore presents wait times of 20 to 45 minutes as \"average\" for Canadian emergency rooms."

Why don't you come here to the States and see what our healthcare is like before you keep lobbing rotten vegetables at your own country?

You were flat out wrong about the criminal, aggressive war, and you're the epitome of a self-loathing canadian lusting for an America that doesn't exist.

I love my country, but I do that by being critical of its government when I must. You know plenty about that, so cut the Anti-American crap.

[Psudo]

Terran, you're telling a Canadian not to pass judgment on Canada? If the personal experience of a pol sci major doesn't validate one's political judgment of one's own country, how is democracy possible at all?

[terran1212]

"Terran, you're telling a Canadian not to pass judgment on Canada?"

No I mean I don't mind him talking about his own system, and heck he can say anything he wants all the time -- but he has to deal with the repercussions of that.

And all he does on his cartoon thing is attack Canadians and praise the most right-wing of Americans. By the way -- we think Bush and the war suck, and this idiot has always backed those things in the safety of Canada, not having to deal with the repercussions of those elite American crooks he always praises.

It doesn't help those of us here in America trying to turn our country around when some jerk up in Canada can do nothing but reassure all the right wing wingnuts here that Canada just needs a dose of America (as does the rest of the world).

[Psudo]

So your side's attempt to "turn this country around" is pure good while the views of the right are devoid of any praiseworthy attributes? Either that's pure baseless partisanship or your criticism of his praise of right-wing Americans deserves to be argued point-by-point rather than dismissed out-of-hand.

JJ wrote:

[Sicko] was really my first glimpse of the US healthcare system in any detail

He admits his ignorance of US healthcare, so in what way can he be claimed to be prejudging it? His only specific point is that anti-Americanism has become a national trait of Canadians, a claim that he (as a life-long Canadian) is more justified in making than either of us State-side.

terran1212 wrote:

By the way -- we think Bush and the war suck, and this idiot has always backed those things in the safety of Canada, not having to deal with the repercussions of those elite American crooks he always praises.

Who is "we"? I'm American, and I support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, so it cannot be "all Americans". Perhaps "the American left" or "Bush's critics" are more accurate definitions of "we", but neither of those are surprising enough to give your argument much weight.

Your ideology is not fact just because you believe it.

[terran1212]

"I'm American, and I support the wars in Iraq"

Ok, so some people are a little slow. Most Americans have kind of swore of the "international war crime which is draining our treasury and making us look like sick fucks to the whole wide world" bit.

Forunately, the neocon assholes will never hold office again. You made a ridiculous comment on the other thread that no one who votes Republican dislikes neoconservative. I don't know if you socialize, or get out, or anything like that, but neoconservatives are Trotskyist group of intellectuals, not the base. The base wants a more old-fashioned small-government conservatism, Libertarian with a mix of Christian evangelism. No wonder Ron Paul has outfundraised McCain. He would've outraised Giuliani and Romney too, but they are both extremely wealthy and have ease fundraising with their resources and loopholes in our "campaign finance" laws.

[Kjorteo]

terran, could you maybe hold back the venom a little? I actually agree with you on matters like strongly opposing the Iraq war and the Bush administration, but your rhetorical tactics are somewhat embarrassing. I mean, it's not quite as bad as how Psudo must feel when sasquatch2 tries to agree with him, but still.

Anyway, regarding health care, I don't see anything wrong with J.J.'s appraisal. Calling the version of the Canadian health care system as presented in Michael Moore's movie "utopian to the point of fraud" isn't blind America worship. Besides, as a Canadian, he would probably know.

I haven't seen "Sicko," but from all the reviews I've read and the discussion I've seen, it appears that Mr. Moore is blasting the United States' health care system and then comparing it favorably to a highly edited, if not wholly fictitious version of health care systems in other countries. I will agree that health care in the United States is a mess, that something should be done about it, and that Mr. Moore does a noble thing by trying to raise awareness and call attention to some of the particularly bad horror stories he found. However, Mr. Moore goes too far when he depicts the solution as lying in a foreign model that, according to J.J., is entirely fictitious. Here's where your argument is backwards: J.J. is criticizing Mr. Moore for pining for a version of Canada that doesn't exist. That's very different than J.J. himself pining for a version of America that doesn't exist.

[Psudo]

terran1212 wrote:

Most Americans have kind of swore of the "international war crime which is draining our treasury and making us look like sick fucks to the whole wide world" bit.

Does "most" mean 51% (making it a controversial view with a slight majority), or 99% (making it a national trait)? Because you're using the latter definition, which is *baseless.

terran1212 wrote:

neoconservatives are Trotskyist group of intellectuals, not the base.

If you're using the specific and accurate definition that refers to a tiny political philosophy that arose after WW2 and supports early intervention to prevent another holocaust, then yes, they are not the base. If you're using the far more common and far less accurate definition of "any Republican without strong libertarian leanings", then you include social conservatives which are a major voter base of the Republican Party. I don't know what quote you saw of mine, but I'd be interested in seeing the context.

terran1212 wrote:

No wonder Ron Paul has outfundraised McCain.

Paul's fundraising hasn't translated into any kind of poll success. Dozens of polls find Paul with less than 1% of the vote, with only two finding him with more than 3% (3.1% in one poll in California, and 6% in one in Texas). Meanwhile John McCain, with his lesser funds, is the projected likely winner in 9 states. Ron Paul's problem isn't fund raising, it's lack of support for his views.

[EmperorLiam]

The most RECENT poll in Texas has Ron Paul at 6%, done June 19, 2007.

The fact is Ron Paul stands a chance, maybe not the same chance as Guilani or McCain or Romney, but those aside hes got a chance. The internet alone shows that hes got the young vote... now if those old people that actually STILL have a land line are the basis of the polls, why be surprised that they vote for the names they recognize?

The fact is, polls have been shown to be horribly inaccurate, this is because old people count for more of the poll vote than they count for the REAL vote.

[Psudo]

Yeah, I don't consider polls a definitive source on anything. But the fact is that there is some evidence that Ron Paul's views are not catching on while there is literally no evidence of them gaining widespread national support. Polls trump nothing.

[EmperorLiam]

Quote:

some evidence that Ron Paul's views are not catching on

WHAT? How is being on the MOST tv shows, the MOST radio shows, and receiving the MOST non-corporate donations, the MOST online votes, and every land line poll (that includes him) shows hes gaining popularity.

It used to be 1%, then 1.5%, then 3%! So where is this evidence his not getting MORE popular?

At this point you just sound like a retarded naysayer. You WISH he wasn't gaining popularity, that is all. I'm glad simpletons like you don't like Ron Paul, especially since you have failed to mention the superior alternative.

Ancient Bush Brown-nosing Turd, Clinton-esque Mormon guy, and that bald guy that looks like a rat, HARDLY are winning people over. They go by NAME recognition and thats it.

[Psudo]

Neither 1%, 1.5%, nor 3% represent "widespread national support". The rest of your characterizations are personal opinions that are not obviously widespread among American voters.

Clinton-esque Mormon guy, hehe. How does comparing him to an election winner suggest he cannot win?

[EmperorLiam]

Quote:

some evidence that Ron Paul's views are not catching on

I provided evidence to the CONTRARY, and you IGNORED that issue and changed the topic, you SUCK ASS AT DEBATING. Why? Because your not debating, or even discussing, your just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Quote:

How does comparing him to an election winner suggest he cannot win?

I don't know, ask the person that suggested that Romney couldn't win... OH WAIT NO BODY DID!

[Kjorteo]

EmperorLiam wrote:

WHAT? How is being on the MOST tv shows, the MOST radio shows, and receiving the MOST non-corporate donations, the MOST online votes, and every land line poll (that includes him) shows hes gaining popularity.

It used to be 1%, then 1.5%, then 3%! So where is this evidence his not getting MORE popular?

Holy crap, he's up to a whole 3% already? If he keeps climbing like this without slowing down, he might be a real force to reckon with by 2056.

[dog77_1999]

My experience with US healthcare.

Emergency Room:

Had a seizure, went immediatly into a room and had a doctor and nurse assisting me. Was put in a hospital room for the weekend.

Specialists:

I have psorisis. I got to choose from a whole list of doctors I could goto, or get one approved. I usually wait 15 minutes after my appointment time. I can get an appointment in usually a week.

The US system has treated me very well. If you can get insurance, I would reccomend it. If you can't, cut your expenses and have money set aside for emergencies. I am still in college and planning ahead. Plan ahead and you'll be ok.

[Psudo]

Kjorteo wrote:

Holy crap, he's up to a whole 3% already? If he keeps climbing like this without slowing down, he might be a real force to reckon with by 2056.

I love you, hahaha.