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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:37 am
 


Psudo is pretty conservative, and he's amazing when it comes to thinking his stances through and eloquently explaining them. We've fought it out on a few issues since I'm just as liberal as he is conservative, but I still recognize a good debater when I see one. He's like the Edgeworth to my Wright. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:27 am
 


I think their are two important arguments that are Getting Blurred here.

#1) Dude is a deuchenozzle.He's throwing a tantrum when the law finally got to him. -At least Hard drug dealers spend time bribing law enforcement and political authorities to prevent nonsense like this from happening-
#2) Marijuana is a harmless drug

this argument of course is where the folks here are getting caught up in.

*) Marijuana is about as harmful as smoking. The only thing is you don't smoke anywhere near as many joints as you do cigarettes
*) if your brain is not wrapped real tight (as it is for most of the population) Use of Marijuana can be a problem as it screws up the balances of brain chemicals.Lots of folks with family histories of potential disorders have them come out after prolonged pot use
*) Due to the chemicals in pot the longer you smoke it the more it impacts your brain function. And the shorter the time between joins the more it impacts your brain function.
*) Depending on the type of pot it can take in ground chemicals that will mess up your brain more. Like if their is a high mercury content your smoking Mercury directly into your brain.

So Prolonged chronic use is very bad. Very harmful to your body and by proxy harmful to your loved ones as you become a screwed up in the head pothead.
Smoking it occassionally is probably is as harmful as having a drink occassionally
Just like booze some people take it to far.
And so the state has laws that say its bad


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:03 am
 


Three points to Kjort for the Pheonix Wright reference.

...

Yeah I'm only posting to say that, I really have no opinion on the issue. Sorry for clogging the thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:45 am
 


karasoth wrote:
I think their are two important arguments that are Getting Blurred here.

#1) Dude is a deuchenozzle.He's throwing a tantrum when the law finally got to him. -At least Hard drug dealers spend time bribing law enforcement and political authorities to prevent nonsense like this from happening-
#2) Marijuana is a harmless drug

this argument of course is where the folks here are getting caught up in.

*) Marijuana is about as harmful as smoking. The only thing is you don't smoke anywhere near as many joints as you do cigarettes
*) if your brain is not wrapped real tight (as it is for most of the population) Use of Marijuana can be a problem as it screws up the balances of brain chemicals.Lots of folks with family histories of potential disorders have them come out after prolonged pot use
*) Due to the chemicals in pot the longer you smoke it the more it impacts your brain function. And the shorter the time between joins the more it impacts your brain function.
*) Depending on the type of pot it can take in ground chemicals that will mess up your brain more. Like if their is a high mercury content your smoking Mercury directly into your brain.

So Prolonged chronic use is very bad. Very harmful to your body and by proxy harmful to your loved ones as you become a screwed up in the head pothead.
Smoking it occassionally is probably is as harmful as having a drink occassionally
Just like booze some people take it to far.
And so the state has laws that say its bad


Well, it can't be that bad--it's often prescribed by physicians. You can't overdose on the stuff. There's been no instances of deaths from overdose that I know of. Everything I've seen indciates that it doesn't do that much harm to people except the small percentage of people who use it a lot, who end up kind of listless and probably aren't doing their lungs any favours.

I don't follow how smoking pot harms your "loved ones" though. Do you mean second hand smoke? I don't think that even a hardcore pot smoker would present that much of a threat to others from second hand smoke.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:32 pm
 


CanadianJeff wrote:
Well you know it's nice that you feel so fine and dandy on the stuff but frankly I myself as well as various friends and sadly family of mine have been far far better off it.

Good for you and your friends and family, but that does nothing to advance your point.

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Your damn right booze is far worse then weed. I think having booze around is honestly not the smartest thing we have ever done as a society but now it's next to impossible to remove.

Just because I said booze is worse than weed doesn't mean I think negatively of it. Yes, drinking too much comes with a myriad of problems, but it is entrenched in Western society. No matter what, alcohol as a business and a vice will never disappear from public consciousness.

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Much like smoking or chewing tabbaco. It's just not a healthy idea in the getgo but now that we have governments making money off the stuff it's next to impossible to get rid of it. Though thankfully tabbaco smoking is starting to vanish at least here in Canada.

I seldom smoke tobacco, but I don't turn down an offer. Smoking is a rather relaxing experience, especially in the company of friends.

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Yes your right being high is diffrent from being drunk. High people are the least likely to pound on your door and the most likely to order pizza. :P But that's not to say it can't or won't affect others in the community. My Brother just got the boot out of his apartment for stinking up his suite by smoking pot.

That just means he wasn't smart about smoking pot. He could have found a more private spot to toke up in, or he could have invested in anything that would deodorize an apartment (i.e. Febreze).

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Often those dealing pot end up dealing other harder drugs later on. That's been proven a few times by scientific research. Most drug dealers start small and go big later on. Pot affects the community all be it in a diffrent manner. That's my point.

Pot dealers will cease to exist if pot is legalized. That is my counterpoint.

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No by my logic keeping things like booze and Tabbaco from being legal in the first place prevents them from becoming a dependant with negitives.

Tobacco and booze have been around for a very long time. The Indians smoked it, and it was a very profitable cash crop in colonial America. Alcohol is the oldest artificial drug in the world. People have been drinking almost as long as they have been writing.

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I posted that one badly and I appologize I am mostly just against it ever becoming legal for fear of the government regulation making money off the sale of it. At which point it's going to be hard as hell to get rid of later once we possibly find medical problems with peoples lungs or other organs due to the THC.

We would have made those discoveries by now. More people smoke pot than you might think.

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Frankly if your going to legalize it you have to have some pretty good scientific evidence that there arn't negitive health effects from mass consumption becuase there would be some I'm sure who would consume cheap pot in large amounts if it was grown nice and clean by the government.

Here's the evidence: It's not physiologically addictive (although I have experienced very mild withdrawal symptoms), it calms me down, it allows me to concentrate more, it helps me sleep, and it gives me a sense of well-being. There is a man who actually uses [url=http://www.intosanity.com/?p=8]federally funded marijuana[url] for health reasons. I also know for a fact that it obliterates nausea, which is a boon to chemotherapy patients.

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Heck BC bud here in Canada is sought after highly becuase of it's clean nature. I know personally speaking that I'd rather have BC bud then anything grown in Saskatchewan. Sticky is good.

I live in California, where medicinal pot is actually sold in shops. It is thoroughly inspected and is very high-quality.

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You know what? I'll admit I may be wrong. But until you can prove to me that smoking that stuff won't cause any further social problems then the ones we already have with the substance and won't cause anything like an increased risk of cancer or increased chance of something like alzheimer's or otherwise I am afraid I can't endorse it.

If anything, everyone will be so mellowed-out that social problems will cease to exist altogether.

Quote:
Bottom line is that I am really and honesty worried that this stuff will end up being the tabbaco of the future. When cigerates were introduced we didn't fully understand the health flaws involved with smoking. About 10 years down the line we hit a big bump and went "oops" and by that time it was a much much harsher fight to get people off of smoking.

Cigarettes have been around for a very long time. The reason people have discovered that smoking them may cause cancer is because before the 20th century, people didn't live long enough to get cancer. Pot has coexisted with the advanced science of today, and if there were definite health risks associated with smoking pot, it would have been published by now.

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It's not that I"m unwilling and unable to budge on this it's just I would really like to see a very strong scientific approach to health effects of long term moderate or heavy use of the substance before legalising it.

Does that help clear things up?

I've been exposed to a lot of anti-drug campaigning, and while I understand it's intent, the fact that it uses half-truths and outright stupidity works against it in the long term.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:18 pm
 


Ah its good to be a libertarian, I love the smell of flame wars in the morning. =P

Conservatives are only convincing in person, BECAUSE THEY THINK YELLING IS MORE CONVINCING! WHHATT WHATT I'M SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY OWN VOICE! WHAAAT? 9/11!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:01 pm
 


and that's why I find it hard to take some people seriously. Stop that right wing left wing crap. :p I'm accually far more liberal then conservative this is just an issue I feel very strongly about on the conservative end. There are issues I feel very liberal about as well such as gay marriage and when someone talks about going 100% no abortion. Circumstances are changing and we have to be able to change with them at times. Although a bit of conservatisim when it comes to the street life and radical change sure isn't going to hurt. Stop trying to put labels on people over one or two issues. People are more complex then you think which is why I can't stand that left wing right wing bullcrap. Wake up you and I are far more complex in our feelings then a single line.

Point in case Im just going to stop with this whole thing obviously my feelings are getting in the way of being able to make a hardline case but beleive me when I say that there are negitive things that weed does to your brain and your lungs. Most especially when people do things like Hot kniving and second hand smoke is enough to get you high. That's what hotboxing is; just intensifing the second hand smoke. I am pretty sure as well that if cigartes are harmfull to children then second hand pot smokes going to hurt as well.

Anyway enough of that. Thank you for your points but I just feel too strongly to go after it all right now.

Anyway Emery is a big ball of stupid if he thought that he could use a substance deemed illegal in the papers and media and export it internationally to other countries that don't like it either and not face the penalty at some point. I mean it would be like me taking a photo of myself blowing up fire hyrdants all over town and posting it in the paper a few dozen times. Eventually I'm going to be charged with arson. It's just common sense. Right or not when you start boasting about breaking the law the law has to come down on you for it's own credability. I just can't believe he wasn't expecting it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:32 am
 


"Anyway Emery is a big ball of stupid if he thought..."

Doesn't it go without saying that he was well aware of the dangers? He is an activist, not some regular Joe off the street.

I LIKE the liberals and conservatives feuding, divide and conquer. It helps expose their stupid views, they usually become angry and emotional, showing their true nature.




"I am pretty sure as well that if cigartes are harmfull to children then second hand pot smokes going to hurt as well. "

So fucking what? French children drink, and the ones that don't (muslims) are rioting and burning ~100 cars every night. Don't scream and point at a 'mouse' when theres a fuking WALRUS raping your grandma! I don't even think of taking its bucket!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:01 am
 


Laim I'll only say this once.

Don't promote fighting of any kind. And for the love of sanity you need to seek help when you put together a walrus, religous ritoing, grandma and rape all in the same short post.

Seek help.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:55 am
 


CanadianJeff wrote:
beleive me when I say that there are negitive things that weed does to your brain and your lungs.
You're not getting it - the question isn't whether or not there are negative aspects to smoking pot (something I tried a few times in high school and have since had no interest in, by the way), but that those aspects in themselves are not justification for them to be illegal.

Stock car racing, for example, has serious negative health aspects - people die or are seriously maimed as a result of their taking part. It's not illegal, though (nor should it be), because those people are responsible for themselves and choose to make that decision for themselves.

I doubt you can find any recreational activity that doesn't have some negative aspect to those that partake - the only relevance of that is that people should be made aware of those aspects so they can make an informed personal decision.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:39 pm
 


If walrus's raping grandmas is wrong, I don't wanna be right.


:lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:01 pm
 


"You're not getting it - the question isn't whether or not there are negative aspects to smoking pot (something I tried a few times in high school and have since had no interest in, by the way), but that those aspects in themselves are not justification for them to be illegal."

And that is where I respectfully disagree with you. I feel that when it comes to consumable products like drink, food and tabbaco that the government does have a role to play to keep people realitivly healthy.

Feel free to disagree. It's just my opinon. But personally I feel worried about the growing rates of cancer and diabetes from weight mass in Canada and the western world as an example of products having been introduced in the past that we felt harmless such as fructose corn syrup.

there is a point I personally feel where the government must take action to stop a growing trend such as obesity. In Canada for example there is a harsh law against trans-fat content in foods to help fight obesity. There have also been a number of published reports about the problem of children developing type 2 diabetes (the type of diabetes connected to obesity) for the first time in our history. And sadly the numbers are growing.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2005/05/ ... 50511.html


All in all I don't feel it's wrong for the government to step in with consumable products and take action. Yes it's a person's choice to get fat or damage their liver or lungs but it may not be so wrong for a government to step in like it is with some health problems and say no.

That's just where we differ I guess. It's all about how you feel about government taking action in the personal choices regarding Canadians health.

Libertarianism has it's virtues and I respect that. I just don't always agree with it on things when health or life is on the line.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:39 am
 


... well I guess you are a communist after all CanadianJeff.

So what about all the people the government has killed to "help" us? All the tards we cut the uteruses out of... the japs we shipped off. The government was doing what was best for us afterall.

I don't disagree that some good isn't done by government, adding iodine to salt prevented people from developing inflamed goiters, folates to flour, etc etc.

But who says that the MARKET, can't do a better job? Communists. No good dirty communists.

Nice talking to you CommunistJeff.


8O


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:42 am
 


Hey Liam, I don't like the authoritarian "let the government decide what's best" idea any more than you do and probably disagree with Jeff just as strongly, but do you think you could phrase your points less like a flame war and more like a debate?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:02 pm
 


But... but... I like being sarcastic. Debate has kinda run its course for now.


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