[Psudo]

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

So wait, from what I understand, the only REAL change to this is State police have the authority, and a mandate, to check citizenship.

I heard it was only the authority, but not a mandate. To check, I'll read the bill. It says A) state, county, city, and local laws cannot prohibit the enforcement of Federal immigration laws, E) police "may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause", F) "may not be prohibited [...] from sending, receiving, or maintaining information relating to the immigration status of any individual" for a variety of specifically enumerated purposes

That's a lot of giving permission and very little imposing of mandates. The most obvious mandate I see is J) the mandate to remain "consistent with Federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons, and respecting the privileges and immunities of United States Citizens."

Granted, I've only read about 1/4th of the bill at this point, but I think I can safely say that the law creates the ability, but not the mandate, to enforce federal immigration law. Someone else should read it, too, and see if I missed something.

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

So making the process potentially more efficient is a bad thing?
Or is the fear that every Latino is going to be constantly stopped by police and checked for ID?

I'm thinking the critics of the bill fear latter. I'd be interested to hear from a critic of the bill who had actually read it.

[SparcVark]

I read through the bill - is it just me, or is section seven a word for word repeat of section six? The crux of the bill looks like section A), which prevents city, county, and state laws from prohibiting immigration enforcement. I don't this bill can be understood outside of the context of the "sanctuary city" laws established by, for example, San Francisco (the text of which is available at http://www.sfgsa.org/index.aspx?page=1069).

These ordinances effectively forbid city/county officers from cooperating with the enforcement of immigration law to the extent possible. I'm kind of thinking of Arizona's statute as an "anti-sanctuary state" ordinance.

I agree with JJ that the law doesn't change all that much de jure, but the de facto effects of it could be enormous if Arizona follows through with stronger attempts to enforce the laws on the books. The dirty secret of illegal immigration into the USA from Mexico is that it's already against the law to come here without authorization, against the law to hire illegal immigrants, but very rarely are these laws enforced. If Arizona gets serious about cracking down on illegal immigrants and those who employ them, the law could have a bigger effect. In particular, Arizona has no legal authority to deport illegal immigrants, so we might see a case of the federal government being embarrassed if large numbers of illegal immigrants are turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement by the state of Arizona.

Also, federal law already requires non-citizens to keep proof of a valid right to remain in the USA with them at all times. I've known a few folks with permanent residency, and they have to keep their "green card" with them 24/7.

[KyleEverett]

I have a green card and though I know its not required for me to keep it on me at all times, I usually do for convenience. A huge risk though should I ever lose my wallet. I use my green card every time I need to update my driver's license, get a job, or apply to a school. Each time to check my legal ability to live and work in the USA, and generally prove my identity.

I think its because most places won't accept foreign passports or birth certificates for identity proof.

[Marcus_Ozius]

I lived in Japan for a time as a student. During that time, we were told by our professors to keep our foreigner in residence card with us at all times. At any point in time, you could be stopped by police who would check your status, and racial profiling was allowed. A chain of English schools went out of business while I was there, and the next morning, the cops were outside of all of the branches stopping and carding foreigners to check if you were employed at the chain. If so, they would register you as unemployed and get your residence and contact information. If you didn't have a job which would renew your residency, it was understood that the information would be used to track you down and deport you. It was flagrant racial profiling done in a coordinated effort by police departments around the country for the purpose of removing a foreign population, and many of my friends were stopped and carded. However, we all had our cards, showed them to the police politely, and went on our merry ways.
All things said and done, it wasn't very inconvenient to have a card with me at all times. I was never personally carded, but I had no fear of what would happen were I to be carded. It seems that the pro immigrant faction in America simply supports immigration for its own sake, regardless of the law. If it's illegal, it's a human rights issue, if it's legal, it's a legal rights issue. The opinions on either side won't change depending on the law because it's largely personal biases or economic self interest that determine the stances on it in the first place.

[BartSimpson]

Marcus_Ozius wrote:

I lived in Japan for a time as a student. During that time, we were told by our professors to keep our foreigner in residence card with us at all times. At any point in time, you could be stopped by police who would check your status, and racial profiling was allowed. A chain of English schools went out of business while I was there, and the next morning, the cops were outside of all of the branches stopping and carding foreigners to check if you were employed at the chain. If so, they would register you as unemployed and get your residence and contact information. If you didn't have a job which would renew your residency, it was understood that the information would be used to track you down and deport you. It was flagrant racial profiling done in a coordinated effort by police departments around the country for the purpose of removing a foreign population, and many of my friends were stopped and carded. However, we all had our cards, showed them to the police politely, and went on our merry ways.
All things said and done, it wasn't very inconvenient to have a card with me at all times. I was never personally carded, but I had no fear of what would happen were I to be carded. It seems that the pro immigrant faction in America simply supports immigration for its own sake, regardless of the law. If it's illegal, it's a human rights issue, if it's legal, it's a legal rights issue. The opinions on either side won't change depending on the law because it's largely personal biases or economic self interest that determine the stances on it in the first place.

In Japan, if you're a foreigner, the best thing to do is when you show yup in town go to the first cop you see and ask for directions on where you're going (even if you already know). He'll take you to where you're going and then keep an eye on you after that (it makes him look good to his superiors). And then if you run into something like some other cop hassling you "your" cop will intervene becuase you're 'his' case. It's a curious way to play the Japanese system against itself.

[bootlegga]

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

Or is the fear that every Latino is going to be constantly stopped by police and checked for ID?

That's exactly what everyone is worried about.

Perhaps if law enforcement in the USA wasn't considered biased already with its policy of DWB (Driving while Black), then this wouldn't be an issue. But African-Americans already feel persecuted by law enforcement. Critics are saying this just adds another target to the list.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga wrote:

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

Or is the fear that every Latino is going to be constantly stopped by police and checked for ID?

That's exactly what everyone is worried about.

Perhaps if law enforcement in the USA wasn't considered biased already with its policy of DWB (Driving while Black), then this wouldn't be an issue. But African-Americans already feel persecuted by law enforcement. Critics are saying this just adds another target to the list.

What's ironic is that a number of studies show that the worst cops for profiling blacks are black cops, the worst for profiling hispanics are hispanic cops, and etc.

[Marcus_Ozius]

BartSimpson wrote:

In Japan, if you're a foreigner, the best thing to do is when you show yup in town go to the first cop you see and ask for directions on where you're going (even if you already know). He'll take you to where you're going and then keep an eye on you after that (it makes him look good to his superiors). And then if you run into something like some other cop hassling you "your" cop will intervene becuase you're 'his' case. It's a curious way to play the Japanese system against itself.

I was always very polite to the cops in Japan, though I never used this particular technique. I found that if a person takes it upon themselves to engage with their law enforcement officials, then problems are generally less likely to happen. A person who, in Japan, bows and greets officers when he sees them is less likely to be viewed as a threat than somebody who evades them. I believe that people need to be more actively engaged with their law enforcement officials in general, and it will avoid many of the issues that are proving to be so difficult in the immigration dispute. Living in the states, I enjoy taking walks late at night, sometimes two in the morning or so. This is, obviously, a bit odd. I've been stopped by police before, who were a little rude I'll admit, but who were just doing their job. After a conversation, which went pretty well, honestly, we parted ways, and from then on, whenever I'd take a walk at night and catch him on his rounds, we'd wave a greeting to each other and sometimes have a nice chat. No problems. No hassle. Just a bit of civility and there was no problem from then on.

[BartSimpson]

Marcus_Ozius wrote:

I was always very polite to the cops in Japan, though I never used this particular technique. I found that if a person takes it upon themselves to engage with their law enforcement officials, then problems are generally less likely to happen. A person who, in Japan, bows and greets officers when he sees them is less likely to be viewed as a threat than somebody who evades them. I believe that people need to be more actively engaged with their law enforcement officials in general, and it will avoid many of the issues that are proving to be so difficult in the immigration dispute. Living in the states, I enjoy taking walks late at night, sometimes two in the morning or so. This is, obviously, a bit odd. I've been stopped by police before, who were a little rude I'll admit, but who were just doing their job. After a conversation, which went pretty well, honestly, we parted ways, and from then on, whenever I'd take a walk at night and catch him on his rounds, we'd wave a greeting to each other and sometimes have a nice chat. No problems. No hassle. Just a bit of civility and there was no problem from then on.

All good advice and practice.

[Psudo]

I wrote up a summary of the immigration bill with a little commentary.

[Calbeck]

As a long-time Arizona resident, allow me to assure everyone of some basic facts:

1) For decades, Arizonans as a general rule have been growing disgusted with the often-open refusal of the federal government to enforce border control. The bill's popularity stems from our "frontier ideals" of "doing the job because Uncle Sam is too damn lazy to do it Himself".

2) Most of the groups claiming this is all about racism are the same ones who have known to rely on claims of racism in most issues they pipe up about. The result is a huge Cry Wolf Effect that few Arizonans who are not already members of these groups take seriously.

Because of these basic realities, Arizonans see the outcry against the bill (largely coming from outside the state) as whipped-up tempest-in-a-teapot political shenanigans from The Usual Suspects. And as a result of that, our majority opinion of the outrage has developed into this:

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4061665

Yes, it's safe for work.

[Bacardi4206]

I think Arizona is doing the correct thing, illegal immigration is a problem. No more worse than in America. Arizona is taking one step away from PC bullshit and one step towards actually enforcing there laws and what should be done.

The opposition can cry racial profiling all they want, I am not going to deny that it's most likely Latinos will be targeted more than anybody else. However thats due to common sense, living right next to a country full of latinos who all have/try to illegally immigrate into America. I mean proof being all those latinos that moved to other states because of this increased pressure against illegal immigrants. They all left because they were most likely illegal immigrants who diddn't want to leave and skipped to another state before the bill passed.

[GreenTiger]

Bacardi4206 wrote:

I think Arizona is doing the correct thing, illegal immigration is a problem. No more worse than in America. Arizona is taking one step away from PC bullshit and one step towards actually enforcing there laws and what should be done.

The opposition can cry racial profiling all they want, I am not going to deny that it's most likely Latinos will be targeted more than anybody else. However thats due to common sense, living right next to a country full of latinos who all have/try to illegally immigrate into America. I mean proof being all those latinos that moved to other states because of this increased pressure against illegal immigrants. They all left because they were most likely illegal immigrants who diddn't want to leave and skipped to another state before the bill passed.

Well put.The problem the left is having is it is taking a step away from being PC. It would be PC to possibly whine and complain, but to actually do something to solve the problem is a no-no. The left wants a solution that ticks off nobody exept the Americans living in Arizona. Guess what the people to be protected are the Americans living in Arizona. If Illegal Immigrants, The Mexican President and the Illegals are upset that is unfortunate.

This is NOT the Canadian Border. There are very real problems here. Sitting on your ass pretending their isn't a problem is politically fashionable. Arizona has decided not to be politically correct and is attempting to solve a big problem.
My hope is that it works and other States start to solve problems even if it means offending the Politically Correct Elite.