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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:15 pm
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Bowing to foreigners (click to view)
Date: May 24, 2011
Next time you're looking at some big wall map of the world, note the way Israel is depicted. Assuming it's a good, up-to-date, politically-correct map, the country will have two little dotted-line blobs inside of it, often shaded in with an entirely different color from the rest of the territory. These blobs are of course the Palestinian territories, the Gaza Strip to the west and the West Bank to the east, sometimes joined by a third blob, the Golan Heights, to the north. Map-makers use dotted lines and different colors for these areas the same reason they depict Kashmir with diagonal shading: the land is disputed.

Prior to the so-called "Six-Day War" of 1967, Israel didn't have any of the dotted-line lands; all were sized in that conflict as part of an effort to create a protective "buffer" following repeated multi-front Arab invasions. At one time it was assumed that Israel would eventually give the land back to the nations from which they were taken: Jordan, Egypt, and Syria respectively, but over the years the narrative has evolved, and it's now pretty much the established consensus — both internationally and in Israel itself — that Gaza and the West Bank should actually form a new country altogether, the nation of Palestine. For many decades now, the dotted-line places have thus been regarded as a nation-in-waiting, a legitimacy that was further solidified following the US-brokered Oslo Accords of 1993, which established a universally-recognized, interim Palestinian government in the lands now known as the "occupied territories."

I mention this background only to remind how so much of our understanding of the Palestinian-Israeli situation is based around the aftermath of the 1967 war, and the quickly-undermined borders that war established. So when President Obama declared last week that he wants to see an independent Palestinian nation "based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps," he wasn't really saying anything particularly bold or precedent-shattering. If you support the idea that there should be a sovereign Palestinian homeland — as every presidential administration since Carter has  — then obviously that homeland has to take land from somewhere. The post-'67 annexed territories are about as logical a place to start as you can get.

Nevertheless, the right-wing backlash to the President's words have been extreme to the point where it seems many conservatives are pining for a return to the days when the world was still debating whether there should even be a Palestinian state at all. In a now much-quoted line, Republican presidential front-runner Mitt Romney accused Obama of "throwing Israel under the bus," blasting the President for "disrespecting" the Jewish state and arrogantly "dictating" Israel's negotiating terms. Other Republicans ratcheted up the rhetoric even further; Newt Gingrich, for instance, called Obama's announcement "the most dangerous speech ever made by an American president for the survival of Israel," while Michelle Bachmann dubbed it a "shocking display of betrayal."

Again, all this in response to a few lines that did little more than reaffirm a decades-long consensus of successive America and Israeli governments.

Of course, the rhetorical center of gravity on Israeli issues has shifted markedly to the right ever since the re-election of the country's former hardline prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2009. Bibi, as he is affectionately known, has forged his political career by consistently opposing each and every movement of the Palestinians towards statehood, earning the support of Orthodox and religiously conservative voters in his country who are fond of the idea of one Israel, indivisible. Though he's softened a bit since re-taking power, Netanyahu has still made very effective use his office to redefine what it means to be a "friend of Israel" under his leadership, with the new definition including far less criticism of Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories, and fewer demands for Israeli compromise in exchange for Palestinian statehood.

In his unfortunately-timed adress to Congress today, Netanyahu was thus quite eager to harp on Obama's "1967" line, earning a standing ovation from the Republicans present. But he also downplayed other key aspects of the President's speech that were more favorable to conservatives, including a fairly firm stance against negotiating with any Palestinian government that includes an Israel's-right-to-exist denying Hamas, and a statement of opposition towards an apparently imminent Palestinian declaration of independence at the UN General Assembly.

That latter promise is key, and represents how badly isolated Israel is fast becoming in the community of nations, and why there should be a real push to get this Palestinian business resolved internally once and for all. Natanyahu seems to be pushing hard in the other direction, however, trying to solidify his most uncompromising US base at the expense of everyone else. And it may be working.

Perception is reality in politics, and regardless as to whether or not Obama is actually running a more "anti-Israel" (or whatever) administration than his predecessors, the GOP and the Prime Minister are helping keep that impression in the headlines simply by speculating about it a lot. For a sensitive, eager-to-please liberal politician like Obama, the humiliation effect (spurned by new anxieties of Jewish Democrats) may very well force him to be even more ostentatious in his support for the Netanyahu view of the world, no matter how counter-productive to the larger peace process that ends up being.

The most effective political radicals are those clever enough at spin and PR to make their far-out positions look cautious and safe, and the moderation of their opponents seem unreasonable and fanatical. In this regard, I think Netanyahu and his Republican backers clearly have Obama beat.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:00 pm
 


This is SOP from the American right. Israel can do no wrong in any way shape or form and to even remotely criticise the Israelis is to wish for another Holocaust.

Did anyone see Netanyahu's speech to congress today? He got more ovations than Obama. Can you imagine if Democrats had applauded a foreign leader more than Bush? FOX news would be mentioning that every day till the end of time.

But don't worry. There's no Israel lobby and the tail doesn't wag the dog in the least.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:13 pm
 


They should put it out there for all to see what Israel will be satisfied with. They have legitimate concerns about their survival so what would need to be done to secure it in their eyes would be illuminating. Saying Hamas should rescind the death to Israel in their charter and no more rocket attacks is a start but also where is the capitol going to be and what will be the boarders once and for all?

As to the pro-Israeli lobby running both sides of the isle in the halls of power in the US that is a bit of a two way street. Israel would never be where it was without the US and the US needed the state of Israel to have a toe hold in the region. Such a deep relationship isn't going to unravel overnight and there is just as much of the US and Obama playing Israel and Netanyahu as they are playing him.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:42 pm
 


There are plenty of Israelis who would say that Arabs could have east Jersulam sans the Jewish Quarter. However, the small fringe parties that prop up Likkud(a good example of the weakness of the PR system) would say Ramallah, or that they already have a capital city in Amman. Remember that 75% of Jordanians claim to be 'Palestinians'.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:48 pm
 


xerxes wrote:
This is SOP from the American right. Israel can do no wrong in any way shape or form and to even remotely criticise the Israelis is to wish for another Holocaust.
The obvious truth that Israel can and does do wrong does not mandate that they give up their sovereignty within their borders or agree to whatever the Palestinians demand. Peace can only come by a negotiated agreement, not a coerced concession.

xerxes wrote:
Did anyone see Netanyahu's speech to congress today?
This one? [Transcript, Video: Part 1, Part 2]

My favorite parts:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, via the Globe and Mail, wrote:
I'm willing to make painful compromises to achieve this historic peace. As the leader of Israel, it's my responsibility to lead my people to peace. (Applause.)

Now, this is not easy for me. It's not easy, because I recognize that in a genuine peace, we'll be required to give up parts of the ancestral Jewish homeland.
[...]
I stood before my people and I said, "I will accept a Palestinian state."
Is it necessary to be a radical right-wing, pro-Zionist ideologue to applaud that?


Last edited by Psudo on Tue May 24, 2011 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:59 pm
 


It would almost seem easier to find a way to make the dispossesed Palestinians into citizens of Jordan and transfer all of them there. At some point in the discussion it will have to be recognized that not even the centre/leftists of Labour or Kadima will give anything more to the Palestinians than Netanyahu would, and that the borders right now are going to stay that way into perpetuity. Said it before so I'll say it again: the death toll of citizens in Israel killed druing the second Intifada also killed the last bits of sympathy the vast majority of Jews might have ever had for the Palestinian plight. That bridge was crossed and burned to ashes by the suicide bombers and their commanders, even among left-leaning or internationalist Israelis, and there's no going back as long as the Palestinian cause remains dominated by the murderous likes of Hamas.

I could see myself supporting a homeland in Jordan, as well as agreeing to any foreign aid required that would assist the Jordanian government to incorporate the Palestinians into their general population, as well as to build new housing and infrastructure for the increase in numbers. I'd find it a lot more agreeable than seeing any Canadian tax dollars being used by the UN to prop up that obscenity of a Hamas gangster state in Gaza, or the remnants of Arafat's robber-barony in the West Bank.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:36 pm
 


I think its fairly reasonable to set acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the Israeli state as a precondition to talks. I pity the Palestinians and despise their leadership; its revolting how they have abused their own.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:43 pm
 


Quote:
The 28-year-old Jewish American woman was allegedly tackled by members of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) during Netanyahu's speech to Congress after she yelled, "stop Israeli war crimes."

I can't bring myself to fully support either side of the Middle East dispute. Maybe we can just make it a DMZ or something.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:52 pm
 


Quote:
It would almost seem easier to find a way to make the dispossesed Palestinians into citizens of Jordan and transfer all of them there.


Prior to 1967 they were Jordanians and referred to themselves as such, just as the arabs living in Gaza were Egyptian citizens. Prior to '67 the term Palestinian was a term used almost exclusively by the Jews.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:30 pm
 


I like how she has her banner conveniently splayed across her lap in the photo.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:41 am
 


Quote:
The 28-year-old Jewish American woman was allegedly tackled by members of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) during Netanyahu's speech to Congress after she yelled, "stop Israeli war crimes."
Is this allegedly in the sense that she claimed to have been beaten up when she checked into the hospital with a neck brace on but doctors can find no sign of it, or in the sense that 40 witnesses saw it but there hasn't yet been a conviction? Both of those options have precedent.

"Image courtesy of CODEPINK." Have you ever seen CODEPINK protests? They manipulate the media to get attention for their shallow but uncompromising beliefs (when they can remember to stay on topic). They intentionally invoke their own forcible removal and shout of imagined abuses on the way out. They have a long history of faking injury and declaring abuse as a way to invoke pity for their cause. Even the left recognizes that they're not helping their own causes and reject them as constituents. [Edit: Oh, then there's this.]

Anyone who distrusts the Tea Parties has at least as much reason to distrust CODEPINK.


Last edited by Psudo on Wed May 25, 2011 1:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:01 am
 


For the life of me I can't understand the American obsession with the this corner of the Middle East. I really can't. Unless the Jewish lobby is as strong as the conspiracy theorists would have me believe. Or unless there are just that many born-again Christians who believe--well I'm not sure what they believe...something to do with Israel and the Rapture.

I don't think either side is particularly motivated to change anything. From Israel's standpoint, they have more land to expand into, they can conveniently avoid the whole issue of Palestinians return or whatever it's called, and in return they have to tolerate the odd cold-war era rocket that hits a target. And For the Palestinians, they can blame Israel for all the misery in their world and continue to run corrupt governments that enrich a few elites.

The fact that, at a strategic level, neither side has done anything different in decades should be enough indication that--protestations notwithstanding--the status quo is the least bad state for this conflict.

That's why I don't see the foreign policy advantage of engaging in this conflict.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:08 am
 


Zipperfish: Maybe this metaphor will help. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe this corner of the Middle East must be protected from possession by heretics in exactly the way you believe science should be not be overrun by global warming denying creationists.

I share your assessment of the status quo, though.

Also related, The IAEA claims Syria was 'very likely' making an illegal nuclear reactor at a site bombed by Israel in 2007, which is "as strong a wording as the agency [...] can come up with."


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:56 am
 


Psudo wrote:
Zipperfish: Maybe this metaphor will help. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe this corner of the Middle East must be protected from possession by heretics in exactly the way you believe science should be not be overrun by global warming denying creationists.

I share your assessment of the status quo, though.

Also related, The IAEA claims Syria was 'very likely' making an illegal nuclear reactor at a site bombed by Israel in 2007, which is "as strong a wording as the agency [...] can come up with."


It's a good metaphor. I've been known to rather zealously protect the "sanctity" of science. Though I can't imagine ever getting violent over it.

Would you argue then that the interests at stake here are primarily moral? Or spiritual (if that isn't the same thing)?

I have a hard time with using moral arguments as a justification to interfere with conflicts, as you've probably noticed. I'm not immune to the argument, and I'm not an immoral or an amoral person, at least as far as I'm concerned. I just need a really strong argument that (a) there is evil that must be stopped and (b) by stopping this evil we do not become a new evil as bad as the old evil.

A religious argument (e.g. we need the Jews in Jerusalem for the Rapture to happen) wouldn't like get anywhere with me. Granted, such an argument would go a lot further in the US, where there is a strong Christian component.

I have no compunction with taking concrete action to prevent autocratic nations with poor human rights records from obtaining nuclear weapons. From a logical standpoint, it's a mug's game since, eventually, suitcase nukes will become available to terrorist regardless of the checks and balances we impose. But that is the future, not today.


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