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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:21 am
 


I think my point is more evident now than before Liam's latest response.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:48 pm
 


Kjorteo:
"as if putting him in a more-dangerous-than-before environment satisfies our current definitions of cruel and unusual punishment."

How does the environment Conrad and others are placed in, not relevant to the punishment? Understand 'cruel and unusual punishment' as a legal term eludes to the idea that the 'punishment should fit the crime'. This means it is subjective; but since the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 was passed by your government, apparently the condition of your jails doesn't meet the standards of your elected officials. So yes... putting someone in jails with rape going on is considered cruel and unusual punishment by your own government. Prison reform has been a long ongoing process, our standard of what is, "cruel and unusual", continues to change. For example prisoners in Canada won the right to vote years back.


"Now, if you want to talk prison reform, that's fine, but that's a completely different argument."

No, they are the exact same issue. Prison reform can't happen without changing why we send people to jail, they are tied together. The single biggest problem in USA is over-populated prisons, reducing what crimes get jail time would solve the problem, obviously the is only seriously considered by people if they feel many people in jail do not deserve to be there, or that better alternatives exist to punish them.


"Sentencing a man to starve to death for theft is clearly excessive; it's capital punishment, and it's a particularly long and painful way to die. It would clearly be cruel and unusual, so does that mean it's unfair to take the stolen money back in this analogy?"

Courts in Canada and USA fine people more money than they have, all the time. I see what your trying to say, but juries already debate the effect a sentence will have when they determine the punishment. Your analogy only works in a fictional court system, I'm talking about the court systems of CANADA and USA, sorry if I did not make this clear. Although I am for capital punishment, even I am aware that when Canada eliminated the death penalty jury convictions rose from 10% to 20%, the possibility of a death sentence does affect if a jury will find a defendant guilty, so would taking too much money from someone that stole. Our jury systems aren't perfect, but you can't ignore them when discussing anything related to law and punishment.

"being convicted of a crime usually means going to jail."

No, the vast majority of people convicted of a crime do not go to jail, but instead given fines, community service, or simply their jail sentence suspended. I myself had a suspended sentence, for a drug crime that could have netted me years in jail.


CanadianJeff:

"honestly Liam Conrad is likely to get special watch by the guards"

"his odds of being raped have increased but it's so silly to point that out when his odds of MANY things increase by being in jail."

Sounds like your just paraphrased my first post in this thread:

Me:"Instead, they are sending him to a prison full of STD infected junkies and thugs that will rape and beat you, and often shank you with prison made knives. Hopefully hes rich enough that he gets special treatment, but otherwise this is a cruel punishment"

Notice I list 3 separate things that could happen in his jail environment, all of which studies have been done on (go ahead, google em), all of while occur more often per capita in jails than in the general population.

"But that is a topic [rape] very much seperate from Black and why he does or does not deserve his sentence."

How is the environment that Conrad has been sentenced to spend 6.5 years in not relevant? I have not even really discussed rape/sexual-assault, only its elevated levels within jails. I do not think pointing out that prisons, have higher incidence of rape, std infection, and assault, is silly. Something 'silly' to point out would be that the odds of Conrad being hit by a car while in jail have dramatically decreased, as well as the odds of him visiting the Great Wall of China.



Psudo:
Don't waste my time if your gonna cop out early once you no longer have a leg to stand on.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:23 am
 


oh for goodness sakes would you stop it already the man obviously did the crime and now he has to do the time.

What do you expect for us all to say ohhh...the poor man now has an increased risk of having a bad event happen in his life let's all send him to a non prison like holding place because he is rich and has contributed to Canada in the past.

He did the crime and now he has to do the time. Yes prisons are horrible no one is arguing that they arn't. But frankly give up on the man Conrad Black is a horrible overconfident thief who has been judged guilty and has a sentence to serve.

And yes your bloody right "...It's a cruel punishment" that's what you get when you steal. Would your rather we save him 6 years and chop off his hand or his money? That's what happens when you commit a crime is you get punished.

I'm sorry but it just won't sink in with you. The man is a criminal start treating him like any other. For once in his life Conrad won't be special.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:59 am
 


This will be my "devil in the details" post, in celebration of it's number.[hr]
This article verifies that Conrad Black will be serving his sentence at FCI Coleman Low (and will have regulated e-mail access during his stay). BOP.gov offers this description of low security conditions:
BOP.gov wrote:
Low security Federal Correctional Institutions (FCIs) have double-fenced perimeters, mostly dormitory or cubicle housing, and strong work and program components. The staff-to-inmate ratio in these institutions is higher than in minimum security facilities.
That last sentence implies "higher than minimum, but lower than all others." BOP.gov also mentions Colman Low "is in urgent need of correctional officers to fill vacant positions." So, if anything, the staff-to-inmate ratio will be lower than is typical for a low security institution.

The Star article I linked to before mentions Coleman as the likely candidate. It describes Coleman Low's conditions for paragraphs, which make good reading. Perhaps the most important point, though, is their description of his associates there:
Coleman has a population of around 2,000 doing time for crimes such as robbery and firearms offences.

Apparently Black can expect inmates such as Mariano (28 in 2002) from Buenos Aires, in for 40 months, whose father came to visit him in prison [1]. Other prison talk about FCI Coleman Low: [2], [3]. No description mentions STDs, junkies, violent episodes, or rapes. They seem complimentary, not fearful.

In difference to your side, there is a rehab center there, and at least one inmate has Hep C (or did in 2001). The rest of the article is editorial from an activist website (they "challenge" "the right-wing media machine" [4]) without presented evidence of their claims, but I assume the infected convict named is real. But one Hep C patient out of 2,000 is actually better odds (0.05%) than 4 million out of 300 million (1.33%, the national figure, based on the same source). Those figures don't actually suggest a lower Hep C rate than the national average because of methodology problems, but they certainly don't suggest a higher Hep C (or any infection) rate than the nation at large.

Here a woman claims her husband was recommended Coleman as opposed to a "camp" (ie, minimum security institution) by his lawyer.

Maybe you know something I don't, but all the above evidence, everything I've seen and read, says FCI Coleman Low is about as nice a place as one can expect from a prison. Google provides no instances of rape or assault there, and everyone and their lawyers, when discussing their personal situations, seems to be picking Coleman as the best prison in the area.

There's more evidence here for favoritism for the rich than for cruel or unfair treatment.

And of course this is not all the information that exists. I'm sure there's been at least one violent assault at Coleman Low, some infections spreading, even some STDs. I'm not trying to suggest these things don't exist or that Coleman Low is better than the nation at large. I'm just demonstrating what evidence looks like, that you haven't provided any, and that none the evidence I can find defends your claim that Black is entering "a prison full of STD infected junkies and thugs that will rape and beat you, and often shank you". If legs are presented evidence, it's you who has no leg, not a single presented fact, to stand on.

If you have any evidence beyond prison mythology and your own word, please present it.

[hr]And Merry Christmas, everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:54 pm
 


CanadianJeff: "Yes prisons are horrible no one is arguing that they arn't."

... Well, you have stated that he deserves even MORE years, I think a jail sentence is bunk for theft, it is overkill in one way, but under kill in regards to the monetary penalty, he should be forced to pay back every single penny he stole at the very least, which obviously should be returned to those that lost it.



Psudo, thank you very much for doing the research and making that post. It takes time and effort, really appreciate it. I like the email access bit, why waste paper after all, plus; pencils = stabba stabba!

"FCI Coleman Low is about as nice a place as one can expect from a prison"

A 2000 thousand capacity? Thats about 4 times the size of an average Canadian prison. But that might not be a bad thing, if its a newer prison it would have a super high tech camera security system. Heres what I'm talking about, in this youTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy7d59i_Yyg



Heres a 'not so nice' American prison vid to be 'fair and balanced':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kINz7uU ... re=related


"There's more evidence here for favoritism for the rich than for cruel or unfair treatment."

That is a fair assement. 6.5 years and a tiny 125k fine is still a stupid punishment for theft, do the people he stole from even get any money back? I hope they aren't getting screwed by the system too.


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