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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:55 pm
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Doing favors for the rich (click to view)
Date: September 21, 2010
One of the biggest domestic issues facing the United States these days (a category in which there is no shortage), is the outstanding matter of what to do with President Bush's tax cuts. Mr. Bush, we may recall, was a tax-cut happy sort of guy, and cut income taxes fairly dramatically during his eight years in office, especially for the rich. But now the sunset clause is going to kick in, and if no action is taken, taxes will rise for almost all Americans come January, 2011.

The Democrats have called for the Bush tax cuts to stay — but only for Americans making less than $200,000 a year (ie: over 98% of the population). Anyone making more than that will see their taxes increase back to the pre-Bush levels. For the upper 2%, this will represent a hike of 3 to 4%.

In response, the Republicans have said they will only support legislation that makes permanent all of the Bush tax cuts, rich and non-rich alike. House leader John Boehner even went so far as to say he'd rather see no tax cuts for anyone than a tax hike on the wealthy (though he later backed down).

It's an odd strategy, this Republican business of defending the interests of the rich. Though we're all comfortable with the stereotype of the GOP as the party of the wealthy cigar-chomping plutocrat, in recent years the uber-rich have actually been steadily ditching the Republicans and migrating to the other side. In the 2008 election, for instance, Obama won 52% of the votes of Americans making over $200,000 a year, and even now, in the midst of this supposed darkest hour of Democratic socialism, the President's approval rating remains much higher among the country's wealthiest 2% than any other income group.

The reason for this correlation is not that difficult to discern. The stereotypical Ivy League, latte-drinking, New York Times-reading, urbane metrosexual liberals, whom the Republicans love to hate, are generally much better off than the heartland tractor pull set who make up the idealized GOP base. Wealth has always brought with it certain social expectations and in-group attitudes, and in the 21st Century, those tend to veer to the left of the political spectrum. Middle and lower-class conservatives may look down upon the hedonistic values and culture of the university campus and big city life, but so too do the rich children of privilege and titans of the corporate sector increasingly look down upon the churchy redneckism of Sarah Palin and her ilk. When it comes to social policy in particular, it seems that the wealthy are quite willing to compromise on taxes and regulation so long as it means their politicians will be pushing a progressive agenda on things like gay rights and immigration. Indeed, part of the whole point of being rich is that you don't need to worry much about money matters any more, and can afford to take a financial hit in the pursuit of philanthropic causes.

With deficits and debt continuing to loom, it seems that a saner Republican strategy would be to support raising taxes on a wealthy elite that increasingly wants less and less to do with them. Such a move would generate billions in revenue to pay down all sorts of outstanding expenses, and would get the nation closer to the fiscal solvency conservatives supposedly desire. Of course, politics is not all about strategy, I realize, and there is an ideological argument to be made that raising the taxes of America's most productive class is simply bad policy, period. But in times of such extreme distress, surely we can all make a sacrifice or two. The rich certainly seem willing to make theirs.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:21 pm
 


There also a difference between Conservative Rich and Liberal Rich. Heck in Washington State, Bill Gates Sr drafted Initiative 1098 to create an income tax for the top 2% of Washingtonians.




Conservative Rich just want to make more money and invest it and make more money.

Also Bill Clinton admitted that he wanted his taxes to be raised on the Daily Show.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:44 pm
 


People who want their taxes to be raised generally consider it a philanthropic donation. I have a hard time accepting that logic, since philanthropy is not typically mandated on the threat of jail time. The conservative rich tend to voluntarily donate directly to causes of their choice, moreso when taxes are cut and less so when they are raised.

It is not a case of unequal philanthropic motivation, but differing definitions of what philanthropy is.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:48 pm
 


I don't think paying taxes is philanthropy so much as it is doing your share.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:26 am
 


Philanthropy is voluntarily giving as much of your honest earnings to a private charity/foundation of your choice as you choose to donate.

Being taxed is involuntarily losing as much of your honest earnings to a innefficient goverment entity as it chooses to take.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:41 am
 


I've dealt with too many charities to suspect them of being efficient.

So heres a question, can you have a government without taxes and can you have a country without government?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:43 am
 


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View CIndy's blog
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:12 am
 


Dragom wrote:
I don't think paying taxes is philanthropy so much as it is doing your share.
How do you know when the share being taken is the amount that should be taken? That's the question government answers with their tax cuts, credits, and increases; in my view, they answer it very badly.

I don't know how much my share is. How can government answer that question more accurately for my life than I can? They certainly don't know more about my life. Taxes are also a red tape nightmare (an obvious efficiency problem), and take personal conscience completely out of the process (an obvious moral problem).

Taxes are a good way to ensure people with no intention of doing their share actually give some share, but they are a lousy treatment of folks who honestly want to do their share. Taxes are good at bad faith, but bad at good faith. They might be necessary (government revenue certainly is), but they're not a profoundly good solution. They're a duct tape and bailing wire, good enough for now kind of solution.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:00 am
 


Hmmm, that is an interesting point. If the rich support having their own taxes raised, then why don't they donate those extra funds to whatever cause they deem most suitable? I don't buy it, it seems like there should be another motivation there.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:36 am
 


Pseudonym wrote:
Hmmm, that is an interesting point. If the rich support having their own taxes raised, then why don't they donate those extra funds to whatever cause they deem most suitable? I don't buy it, it seems like there should be another motivation there.


Because they're smarter than you. They recognize that government doesn't function by allocating resources to a few popular causes, but to all the mundane things required of it. How many people are going to give charitable donations to a sewage plant? Are you going to build highways by popularity. Etc etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:48 pm
 


andyt wrote:
Pseudonym wrote:
Hmmm, that is an interesting point. If the rich support having their own taxes raised, then why don't they donate those extra funds to whatever cause they deem most suitable? I don't buy it, it seems like there should be another motivation there.


Because they're smarter than you. They recognize that government doesn't function by allocating resources to a few popular causes, but to all the mundane things required of it. How many people are going to give charitable donations to a sewage plant? Are you going to build highways by popularity. Etc etc.

The US federal government is not 13 trillion dollars in debt due to sewage plant expenses. That's a state level expenditure anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:54 pm
 


Pseudonym wrote:
andyt wrote:
Pseudonym wrote:
Hmmm, that is an interesting point. If the rich support having their own taxes raised, then why don't they donate those extra funds to whatever cause they deem most suitable? I don't buy it, it seems like there should be another motivation there.


Because they're smarter than you. They recognize that government doesn't function by allocating resources to a few popular causes, but to all the mundane things required of it. How many people are going to give charitable donations to a sewage plant? Are you going to build highways by popularity. Etc etc.

The US federal government is not 13 trillion dollars in debt due to sewage plant expenses. That's a state level expenditure anyway.


You're really going to make a distinction between different jurisdiction's debt? It all comes out of the same pocket. And the same principle applies - if you let people choose where their taxes go, you might as well abolish the government, just have a country that funds everything by popularity with little understanding of what's actually required. It would be an interesting experiment, but probably a disaster. The point of having a representative form of government is that there is some buffer between what people think is a good idea right now. Maybe all the money would go to subsidizing American Idol or something.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:07 pm
 


andyt wrote:
if you let people choose where their taxes go


Why not? Pacifists would be able to note that none of their money went to defense. Conservatives could sleep well knowing they've not supported health care for illegal aliens, and etc.

The government could still make discretionary expenditures from excise taxes and etc. but income taxes could be designated to go to thing people want them to go to. Perhaps fewer people would evade taxes if they had some say in what happened to the money.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:13 pm
 


Dragom wrote:
I've dealt with too many charities to suspect them of being efficient.

So heres a question, can you have a government without taxes and can you have a country without government?


yep, Alberta, quebec

ROTFL


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:01 pm
 


Quote:
The Democrats have called for the Bush tax cuts to stay — but only for Americans making less than $200,000 a year (ie: over 98% of the population). Anyone making more than that will see their taxes increase back to the pre-Bush levels. For the upper 2%, this will represent a hike of 3 to 4%.


Unbelievable!


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