[Canadaka]

Quote:

It is interesting to me
that in the wake of a tragedy
the "lessons to be learned"
are always those
which you already believed.

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archi ... d=20070418

[hr]

Something I recently changed or added to the forums broke the automated topic generation when JJ posts a comic on his site, so no threads were created for the last 2 comics. I have fixed the problem and modified the code in such a way that if future changed occur this automation should not be affected.

Cheers.

[karasoth]

My biggest issue with this is how much we have focused on this. I think its been a lot more then is feasible

[IamMax]

Please remember, Mr Cho shot 32 innocents, then himself. While the body count is technically 33, I am not the only person who feels it's wrong to count him among the victims.

[BartSimpson]

IamMax wrote:

Please remember, Mr Cho shot 32 innocents, then himself. While the body count is technically 33, I am not the only person who feels it's wrong to count him among the victims.

No, you are not the only person to think this. I only wish he'd started his day by killing just himself.

[Psudo]

The 3rd of the 5 stages of grief is "bargaining". That could explain the predictable political backlash.

[Kjorteo]

karasoth wrote:

My biggest issue with this is how much we have focused on this. I think its been a lot more then is feasible

It is a little disproportionate compared to what's going on elsewhere in the world. You know what they call "32 civilians killed in suicide attack" in Iraq? Tuesday. You know what they call it in Sudan? Tuesday morning.

Which isn't to take away meaning from what happened in Virginia. It is a senseless tragedy, and to those who are personally and directly affected by it...well, losing a loved one is the absolute end of the world. It is. If anything, I'm more concerned that not enough attention is being paid everywhere else than that too much is being paid here.

[sasquatch2]

In our less enlightened past this fool would have already been locked away in an institution for his protection and ours. Now it's give him an appointment for "counselling" and turn him loose.

[Brenda]

BartSimpson wrote:

IamMax wrote:

Please remember, Mr Cho shot 32 innocents, then himself. While the body count is technically 33, I am not the only person who feels it's wrong to count him among the victims.

No, you are not the only person to think this. I only wish he'd started his day by killing just himself.

You are SO right!

[Kjorteo]

sasquatch2 wrote:

In our less enlightened past this fool would have already been locked away in an institution for his protection and ours. Now it's give him an appointment for "counselling" and turn him loose.

Not only does your post contain a yellow picture of some sort, but the picture moves.

Are you a witch? Be honest, now.

Edit: Heavenly Father, now the Devil's picture is in my post! You must burn, before you corrupt the others any further!

Edit edit: In all seriousness, there's using the tragedy to push your point just like JJ's cartoon illustrates, and then there's being completely absurd.

[Psudo]

Kjorteo wrote:

It is a little disproportionate compared to what's going on elsewhere in the world. You know what they call "32 civilians killed in suicide attack" in Iraq? Tuesday. You know what they call it in Sudan? Tuesday morning.

Part of that disproportional reaction is due to the fact that it happened in a free and peaceful area. Death does not contrast against death. In 1944, an individual death on the beach of Normandy would not be as recognized as an individual death in rural Ohio, either.

Kjorteo wrote:

Are you a witch? Be honest, now.

Psychological problems are diagnosed far more objectively today than witchcraft ever was. Comparing a soft science to radicalized theology is not reasonable.

Edit

Kjorteo wrote:

Edit edit: In all seriousness, there's using the tragedy to push your point just like JJ's cartoon illustrates, and then there's being completely absurd.

So were you when you used the opportunity to point to Iraq and the Sudan. I'll grant you that your view had the advantage of being novel.

[Kjorteo]

.

Psudo wrote:

Part of that disproportional reaction is due to the fact that it happened in a free and peaceful area. Death does not contrast against death. In 1944, an individual death on the beach of Normandy would not be as recognized as an individual death in rural Ohio, either.

You're completely right, which is kind of sad. Er, not sad that you're right. Being right is fine. The point in question is sad, though. I hate to see life devalued like that, under any circumstance and in any era. Stalin's quote about a million deaths being a statistic is also right, and is also depressing.

Psudo wrote:

Psychological problems are diagnosed far more objectively today than witchcraft ever was. Comparing a soft science to radicalized theology is not reasonable.

Yes, we have made many advances, and current Psychology and Psychiatry is a lot better than old superstition. That's why I found sasquatch2's comment particularly alarming. It sounded as though he was comparing the old ways favorably to the modern system, like if only things were more draconic, this wouldn't have happened. I'm sure it would have been a lot harder for him to acquire firearms if he had been living in an internment camp (yes, I know Cho Seung-Hui was South Korean, not Japanese, but play along here,) but even suggesting such a thing is somewhere between absurd and terrifying.

Whenever there's a tragedy, there seems to be a backlash consisting of pure unadulterated hate, usually in the form of grossly exaggerating and stereotyping the permissiveness of the modern system. Rapists get a slap on the wrist and a gilded copy of their victims' new home addresses, every child ever is given an endless supply of happy pills, saying the word "Jesus" will get you arrested, Government agents personally rob you at gunpoint so they can give your money to people who sit on the couch and have 18 kids, wah wah wah. Screw immigrants, screw criminals, screw Muslims, screw everything but the poor persecuted rich white Christians. I'm sure everyone who has ever used e-mail has gotten at least six of these tirades forwarded to them. It's...it's all just so hateful. It's one of the few things that truly offends me.

[Psudo]

At the risk of starting a flame war...

You dislike the truth of many deaths becoming a statistic because it devalues life, yet you used the mathematics of scale to devalue the 33 lives because of the many hundreds of other deaths around the world lately. You are attempting to give equal attention to all deaths by dragging our attention toward those you think deserve more attention and, thus, away from those who currently have it, What makes you more morally justified in deciding who gets our attention than the media or ourselves?

[Psudo]

sasquatch2 can verify this, but I think he meant mid-20th century psychiatry, not Japanese internment camps. He said "institution" after all, not "internment".

Hrm... is it better to have a few posts with a great many edits, or a great many posts with few edits? Forums make lousy chat rooms.

[Kjorteo]

.

Psudo wrote:

You dislike the truth of many deaths becoming a statistic because it devalues life, yet you used the mathematics of scale to devalue the 33 lives because of the many hundreds of other deaths around the world lately. You are attempting to give equal attention to all deaths by dragging our attention toward those you think deserve more attention and, thus, away from those who currently have it, What makes you more morally justified in deciding who gets our attention than the media or ourselves?

I never said I intended to devalue the 33 lives lost in Virginia in this shooting. In fact, I very specifically said that I was not out to do that, and went on to explain how tragic it is to the people affected by it. My point was that only paying attention to this devalues the lives lost everywhere else. All life is precious, from VT students to those kids in the Sally Struthers commercials.

Psudo wrote:

sasquatch2 can verify this, but I think he meant mid-20th century psychiatry, not Japanese internment camps. He said "institution" after all, not "internment".

Mid-20th century as in...lobotomies? Personally, I don't think those are especially good either. But if he favors a specific particular era, I'll wait until I hear it before critiquing that. My example was an example of the good-old-days mentality in general.

Psudo wrote:

Hrm... is it better to have a few posts with a great many edits, or a great many posts with few edits? Forums make lousy chat rooms.

I'm not sure if what the official rules or unofficial popular consensus is here (or if there even is one,) but I personally err on the side of edits.

[Psudo]

.

Kjorteo wrote:

I never said I intended to devalue the 33 lives lost in Virginia in this shooting. In fact, I very specifically said that I was not out to do that, and went on to explain how tragic it is to the people affected by it.

The distraction from Virginia Tech devalues it as merely part of a global pattern of violence regardless of your intent.

Kjorteo wrote:

My point was that only paying attention to this devalues the lives lost everywhere else. All life is precious,

Is all life equally worthy of attention? About 107 people die every minute (calculated from 8.67 deaths per thousand per year worldwide). If deaths in Iraq and the Sudan have special significance due to their circumstances just as much as the VT students do. If all deaths are equally deserving of attention, your attention should be on international obituaries rather than any specific events or domains.

But human brains don't work that way. We look for unique significance. The story of the death of VT students have unique significance to us, so we give it unique attention. It is unavoidable, and not obviously bad.

Kjorteo wrote:

Psudo wrote:

sasquatch2 can verify this, but I think he meant mid-20th century psychiatry, not Japanese internment camps. He said "institution" after all, not "internment".

Mid-20th century as in...lobotomies?

The word is still "institutions". The funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time. Nice young men in their clean white coats coming to take me away. It's evidently not as good as the modern system of psychriactrics, but it's significantly better than witchhunts. That comparison is invalid.

I'll let you and him argue detainment vs. catch and release.

Kjorteo wrote:

My example was an example of the good-old-days mentality in general.

Two problems with that. First, there's no such thing. Everyone means a different era when they say "the good old days". Second, it is a logical fallacy to assume what is modern is inherently better than what is old (Argumentum Ad Novitatem). You should address his argument of detainment vs. catch and release, not object based on chronological order.

Kjorteo wrote:

Psudo wrote:

Hrm... is it better to have a few posts with a great many edits, or a great many posts with few edits?

I'm not sure if what the official rules or unofficial popular consensus is here (or if there even is one,) but I personally err on the side of edits.

Hehe, as usual, we have exactly opposing gut reactions.