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Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Immigrant shopping (click to view)
Date: July 14, 2010
In what has been cynically analyzed as a last-ditch attempt to find a winning issue for his party, President Obama recently declared that the time is ripe for a new immigration debate in the United States. America's present immigration system "is broken," said the President. "And everybody knows it."

As evidence of its brokenness, Obama called attention to the ongoing fallout over the controversial Arizona "show us your papers" law, which was of course prompted by the larger problem of illegal Mexican immigration in the Southern US. The latter issue is the narrow focus of nearly all immigration debate in America, and the prescribed "solutions" from the political establishment are usually amnesty schemes in one form or another. President Obama says he does not favor a "blanket amnesty" and wants illegals to be "held accountable" for breaking US law, but beyond fines or temporary trips back to their home country, he still supports — as do many Republicans — some sort of "path to citizenship" for them in the long-term. Anything harsher is both cruel and impratical, they say.

It may well be. But immigration is a bigger issue than just that. When the President proceeds to declare that any future immigration bill must likewise "make it easier for the best and the brightest to come to start businesses and develop products and create jobs," he is acknowledging the fact that most immigrants to the United States — even the legal ones — are not being imported for any clear economic purpose. It's a little-discussed fact that most legal US migrants in any given year are simply refugees or the family members of existing immigrants, with qualified, accredited, ready-to-work professionals only representing a minority.

At some point Americans need to have a frank discussion about what they want and need their immigration system to actually do — both for the betterment of the nation, and the interests of its existing, native-born citizenry. Illegals may grab everyone's attention, but they are hardly the only issue in a very complex and multi-dimensional national dilemma.

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[Marcus_Ozius]

The problem that America, and much of the western world, has with immigration isn't due to the immigrants themselves. Large numbers of people have come into America before from cultures that, at the time, we maintained were incompatible; however, the country managed to assimilate them and benefit from the experience. The difficulty now seems to be that there's no clear cut notion of what the national identity is. You can't say, in many groups, that there are American values or an American identity to be proud of. I've had several teachers tell me that there is no such thing as American culture. Without a notion of who we are, it's impossible to accept outsiders because we can't do anything but to flail about, blind and impotent, trying to do something but having no notion as to what or why. If we don't have an identity, why are they a threat to it?
Multiculturalism is all fine and good. In fact, in many ways it's wonderful. Having lived abroad, though, I can say that a country benefits from having confidence in its own way of doing things and asking the new arrival to assimilate as opposed to trying to change things for their benefit. I'm sure that J.J. didn't get much in the way of special treatment in Japan. I know that I didn't, but I didn't expect or WANT any special treatment. I went to a foreign country specifically TO learn about their ways and how to do them and, while I may not have liked or agreed with some of how Japanese people function, I always had the option of leaving, or, at the very least, doing things in my own American way with my own American friends.
The growing Western immigration crisis seems to be caused by the collapse of the notion of us as "The West". What we are has become so vague and watered down that there's no identity anymore, meanwhile, people feel the need for one, and they act out.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Marcus_Ozius wrote:

The problem that America, and much of the western world, has with immigration isn't due to the immigrants themselves. Large numbers of people have come into America before from cultures that, at the time, we maintained were incompatible; however, the country managed to assimilate them and benefit from the experience. The difficulty now seems to be that there's no clear cut notion of what the national identity is. You can't say, in many groups, that there are American values or an American identity to be proud of. I've had several teachers tell me that there is no such thing as American culture. Without a notion of who we are, it's impossible to accept outsiders because we can't do anything but to flail about, blind and impotent, trying to do something but having no notion as to what or why. If we don't have an identity, why are they a threat to it?
Multiculturalism is all fine and good. In fact, in many ways it's wonderful. Having lived abroad, though, I can say that a country benefits from having confidence in its own way of doing things and asking the new arrival to assimilate as opposed to trying to change things for their benefit. I'm sure that J.J. didn't get much in the way of special treatment in Japan. I know that I didn't, but I didn't expect or WANT any special treatment. I went to a foreign country specifically TO learn about their ways and how to do them and, while I may not have liked or agreed with some of how Japanese people function, I always had the option of leaving, or, at the very least, doing things in my own American way with my own American friends.
The growing Western immigration crisis seems to be caused by the collapse of the notion of us as "The West". What we are has become so vague and watered down that there's no identity anymore, meanwhile, people feel the need for one, and they act out.

Not at all. In the West there is a binding culture than encompasses most everyone and that is holding a good job, looking after family and being a good citizen. Immigrant concerns are the same as the indigenous – paying the mortgage, looking after the kids and taking responsibility for health and old age. These are what you do with you life and they are all consuming. Immigrants by and large get this. I suppose there are Moslems that would keep the wife at home but they soon come to the fact that the wife needs a job. So immigrants are us, they assimilate to our standards immediately as they step off the airplane. That is what they come for.

That said in the USA they let in immigrants that are family members who are uneducated and they are in danger of building an underclass that will not fit in economically. The Aboriginals and the Blacks in the USA are examples of just how persistent an underclass can be.

The issue with immigration can be dealt with under the topic of economics, not culture. Immigrants have always been suspect for being of different cultures and it’s a grey area. However the economics of the West are clear. There are low wages, unemployment, hidden unemployment where people are not working and pervasive low wages. You don’t want immigrants coming in face of that. In addition growth in good jobs is difficult in our competitive world. In Canada economic growth in the private sector is jobs without pensions. This is eroding the social order in Canada, it’s dysfunctional growth. So actually growth itself has to be questioned.

[Psudo]

Personally, there are a few things I want to see in a new bill:

1) A stiff fine for each of the million or so new illegal immigrants per year to get in line for citizenship if they have no other criminal record. A few million such fines paid can cover the costs of my proposed changes, and there are at least a few million illegals looking to become legal. If that's not enough money into the budget, exempt willful immigration evaders from Social Security benefits for life (or at least raise the age requirement 5 or 10 years).

For that small proportion with serious crime on their record since coming to the United States (or before, if they're from countries with honorable legal systems), deportation or prison. In fact, let them choose which; once they serve their time and pay their fine, let these ex-cons be American ex-cons.

2) a large increase in the number of legal immigrants allowed into the country per year, especially:
- Skilled workers (EB3) currently have to wait 7-9 years to get in, and we only take 40,000 a year. These are the folks our economy wants. The wait should be reduced to less than a year, and the cap increased to several hundreds of thousands.
- Increase the green card lotto and make it a proportion of US population, so as the US population increases the number of legal immigrants increases, too. It's been 50,000 people per year since 1990; how about 0.05% (1/20th of 1%) of US population per year? That would increase it to about 150,000 today and increasing annually.

3) End the backlog! The tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breath free should not be forced to wait 4, 8, 14 years to come to America. The process should be over in a year or two on average, and three years at the most. Hire short-term immigration workers to handle the existing backlogs and long-term workers to handle the increased immigration rates and prevent future backlogs.

4) Get out of the immigrants' way economically. Cut income taxes for the lower income brackets, reduces taxes and red tape for small and new businesses, measure the success of welfare programs based on how many people have elevated themselves out of eligibility via economic success rather than how many people are gorging themselves at the public trough (ie, reduce incentives NOT to work), and ensure our children (of immigrants and the native-born alike) are taught how to succeed economically in our public schools.

Some say America has no culture. This is America's culture: the certainty that any free man possesses the industrious potential to build prosperity for himself if some government, foreign or domestic, does not prevent it. From Jamestown's John Smith to today's Obama, that is the constant, central theme of the American story. This immigrants from whatever nations can continue that legacy, and will if we let them.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think anyone is going to trust the government to enact good immigration reform until the feds get the southern border secure. There has been some minor progress on that front, but not nearly enough.

[Calbeck]

I would have to say I agree with most of what Psudo suggests. These are, at least, real platform planks worthy of consideration and debate...a far cry from the shoulder-shrug/cry-of-racism that passes for most forms of immigration debate in this country.

[andyt]

Pseudonym wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to trust the government to enact good immigration reform until the feds get the southern border secure. There has been some minor progress on that front, but not nearly enough.

Just too much border, too many people desperate to cross it. Mexicans come because they can earn so much more than at home. Go after the employers that hire illegals in a serious way, put all the resources into that, and demand will dry up and so will the cross border flow. But nobody wants to do that because employers make campaign contributions.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Psudo wrote:

This is America's culture: the certainty that any free man possesses the industrious potential to build prosperity for himself if some government, foreign or domestic, does not prevent it. From Jamestown's John Smith to today's Obama, that is the constant, central theme of the American story. This immigrants from whatever nations can continue that legacy, and will if we let them.

That's nice, very rah rah. However most of the world sees the USA as economically dysfunctional. Thirty five million low paid jobs, all subsidized by the American nanny state. The place has got some problems. This idear that immigration is it's birthright is misplaced.

[Kjorteo]

Pseudonym wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to trust the government to enact good immigration reform until the feds get the southern border secure. There has been some minor progress on that front, but not nearly enough.

No, actually, I see the problem the exact other way around. Try as I might--and I honestly try every time the debate comes up just because it's so ostensibly important--I just can't force myself to care about illegal immigration until legal immigration is fixed. When getting in legally takes 15 years to never, I suddenly have a lot more sympathy for people who consider the alternate solutions. (Basically everything Psudo said except his point #4, just because that seems to fall into the more liberal vs. conservative views on taxes vs. social services, etc.) And I live in New Mexico, a border state.

If you absolutely must focus on the people who break the rules rather than the fact that the rules themselves are an unmanageable mess, andyt at least has a better solution than the "build a fence and post armed guards" crowd, which is honestly more about winning the "voters who hate brown people" demographic than actually finding a solution to a problem anyway. (Fun fact: the portion of illegal immigrants who get here by boldly sneaking across the border El Norte-style is almost comically small compared to the vast majority of people who got here via a legal-at-the-time temporary measure, such as a work visa, then let it lapse. The gesture of making tough, bold calls for border security is about as meaningful as those pretty not-a-campaign-speech-I-swear speeches you hear during any given Supreme Court nominee's confirmation hearing.)

Anyway, because I'm such a hopeless power metal fanatic, I feel obligated to respond to the point others have made about how America's culture is one of freedom, anyone who works hard can make it, etc. with a recent song I really like, "Flag in the Ground" by Sonata Arctica, set in early American history and revolving around an impoverished man who leaves his wife and unborn child behind to immigrate to America, then raises enough money to become a landowner and pay for tickets to bring them over and reunite with them through hard work and determination. Probably the most upbeat song Sonata Arctica has ever written. (The rest of their catalog is musically amazing, but lyrically... dark.)
Lyrics
Video

As one who is really sick of generic patriotic songs (you know, the ones they incessantly play every 4th of July fireworks show ever even though they're terrible,) this is probably my favorite "what America is all about" song right now, even though Sonata Arctica themselves are actually from Finland.

[Psudo]

Bruce_the_vii, I don't see how your argument contradicts mine.

andyt wrote:

Mexicans come because they can earn so much more than at home.

That's incomplete. Many Mexicans come because they can earn more money, which is a good thing all around. When these good folks choose illegal means, it's because the legal process is a snail-paced horror. That is a bad thing all around; our laws shouldn't suck, but neither should they think it's OK to break them. Folks who want to come to work and live are why we have a legal migration process at all.

But Mexican gangsters come here to trade their drugs for our guns and undermine law and order in both countries. Border security should stop them. No matter how strictly you prevent legal businesses from hiring illegal immigrants, the gangs will still use the border.

Nobody wants to regulate the employers of illegals because that blocks the good sort and lets the bad sort through. Such a policy fails on merit, not because of Washington corruption. Once the good sort can actually get here legally and illegals who want to go straight can, then maybe it'd make sense.

Kjorteo wrote:

everything Psudo said except his point #4, just because that seems to fall into the more liberal vs. conservative views

I'll generalize point #4 then: it is proper for America to enable immigrants to succeed and prosper in our society just as well as the native-born can, then allow them to come and do so.

Kjorteo wrote:

Pseudonym wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to trust the government to enact good immigration reform until the feds get the southern border secure.

I just can't force myself to care about illegal immigration until legal immigration is fixed.

Here's a real left/right, chicken/egg conflict! The only way to please enough people to get a bill passed is to change both at once. Illegal immigrants broke the law, a law that was a bureaucratic mess but not actually immoral. We have no moral imperative to accept immigrants; it is not a basic human right to live in the USA. It's not civil disobedience for ethics, it's discarding the law because it's inconvenient. It is behavior that runs contrary to basic law and order, the same laws that then struggle (often in vain) to protect those same folks. We should correct our broken immigration policy, they should make amends for their error, and we should provide a way for them to make those amends. I recommend a stiff fine or some similar fiscal penalty.

I'm also willing to reduce or waive the fine in cases of folks who did not make the decision to come here illegally, such as young children brought illegally by their parents. It doesn't make sense to punish someone for something that wasn't their choice.

Kjorteo wrote:

a recent song I really like, "Flag in the Ground" by Sonata Arctica, set in early American history and revolving around an impoverished man who leaves his wife and unborn child behind to immigrate to America, then raises enough money to become a landowner and pay for tickets to bring them over and reunite with them through hard work and determination. [...] Video

I like it. It's like a metal version of "America (Today)" by Neil Diamond (Is that on your list of patriotic songs you're sick of?). The story parallels the movie Far And Away (which I own and totally recommend); I wonder if the movie inspired the song.

And I can understand the words! That's the main reason I don't like metal, the rarity of comprehensible lyrics. The lyrics page doesn't match the music video in a few spots, though.

[DrCaleb]

Kjorteo wrote:

Anyway, because I'm such a hopeless power metal fanatic, I feel obligated to respond to the point others have made about how America's culture is one of freedom, anyone who works hard can make it, etc. with a recent song I really like, "Flag in the Ground" by Sonata Arctica, set in early American history and revolving around an impoverished man who leaves his wife and unborn child behind to immigrate to America, then raises enough money to become a landowner and pay for tickets to bring them over and reunite with them through hard work and determination. Probably the most upbeat song Sonata Arctica has ever written. (The rest of their catalog is musically amazing, but lyrically... dark.)
Lyrics
Video

I'm a big Tyr fan, and that is some good stuff!

(Sorry for the offtopic)

[Psudo]

Incidentally, Ann Coulter (recovering lawyer) has written a criticism of the Obama Administration's suit challenging Arizona's immigration enforcement law, citing precedent and such. I love it when she focuses on legal reasoning and tones down the rhetoric. It's why I'm a fan.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Psudo, I lumped you cultural arguement in with broader complaints that south east asians and that aren't us. I believe you were being more specific, as I was.

[Teikiatsu]

Pseudonym wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to trust the government to enact good immigration reform until the feds get the southern border secure. There has been some minor progress on that front, but not nearly enough.

Along with the fence, I'd like to see the existing laws enforced first. If they can't enforce the current laws, what reason do we have to believe they will enforce anything new that they create/add on?