[Newsbot]

<strong>Filibuster Cartoon</strong>
<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20071021" target="_blank">Impolite Gestures</a> (click to view)
<strong>Date: </strong> October 21, 2007

<br>The Democratic-controlled US Congress is pushing a bill through that would formally declare the Ottoman Empire\'s World War I-era massacre of over a million of its Armenian citizens as a \"genocide.\" Almost everyone acknowledges that a genocide occurred during this period, especially the Armenians themselves and their immigrant communities in North America, who never, ever stop talking about it. <br> <br>The Turks, however, have an equally fanatic obsession with denying the genocide, and flying into a furious rage whenever someone uses the g-word. For example, the Turkish government has already recalled their ambassador from Washington in protest of this bill even being considered. <br> <br>Bush has denounced the bill as a pointless gesture that serves to only harm Americo-Turkish relations. But it\'s a bit hypocritical for him to say that, considering he personally awarded the Congressional Gold Medal to the Dali Lama last week, despite heavy Chinese lobbying for him not to. He ignored the protests, saying it was more important to stand up for principle. <br>

[Murray_Smith]

I find it funny that China has the nerve to protest anything we do, seeing as how recently there was a giant recall of toys that were all made in China.

[Canadaka]

I'm thinking it all has to do with Iraq.

[Regina]

Murray_Smith wrote:

I find it funny that China has the nerve to protest anything we do, seeing as how recently there was a giant recall of toys that were all made in China.

Yes all made in China..............to US specifications.

[Sharlene]

US specifications are very much against lead paint, regardless of where the product is made. Someone in China cut corners with that - and I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes.


In any case, back to the cartoon, which was the comment I initially came here to make. Our soldiers in the Iraq war are transported to the region through Kuwait. Everything else - armaments, food, etc. - is transported through Turkey. Deliberately annoying Turkey over something that happened almost a century ago is directly detrimental to the war effort.

China, on the other hand, can't be considered a US ally in any sense of the term. We might be willing to buy stuff from them for cheap - although after the lead paint issue, that might get called into question - and, of course, certain high level Democrats whose names rhyme with Ginton and Clore might take lots of campaign funds from the Chinese, but as a matter of policy, the Chinese government officially hates the US.

Hence the difference between the Turkey and China situations means the difference between giving a poke in the eye to an ally versus a poke in the eye to a hostile nation.

[Blue_Nose]

The two aren't directly comparable, are they? The Congressional Gold Medal at least appears to serve a purpose, and its intent is presumably in good will, but what's the justification for declaring a genocide? In whose interest is the motion?

[Pitchfork]

Blue_Nose wrote:

In whose interest is the motion?

The anti-war movement. As Sharlene pointed out, antagonizing Turkey is detrimental to the war effort.

[Regina]

Sharlene wrote:

US specifications are very much against lead paint, regardless of where the product is made. Someone in China cut corners with that - and I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

Nor would I have wanted to be in the shoes of Mattel's executive vice president, Thomas Debrowski. He was the one who flew to Beijing and apologized for damaging China's reputation admitting it targeted some toys that were not a health hazard.

[Rususeruru]

I find it funny when the news organizations say this is the highest honor a citizen can receive when the Office of the Clerk website says this:

Quote:

Since the American Revolution, Congress has commissioned gold medals as its highest expression of national appreciation for distinguished achievements and contributions. Each medal honors a particular individual, institution, or event...

**Edit: for clarification, the news organizations make it sound like the award can only be given to US citizens, whether or not it's the highest honor a US citizen can receive wasn't the topic I was pointing out.

[EmperorLiam]

"Deliberately annoying Turkey over something that happened almost a century ago is directly detrimental to the war effort."

Our 'war effort' should also be directed AGAINST Turkey, they are just as much an enemy to humanity and Democracy as Iran or Al Qeda. These people committed genocide, and were never punished for it. Even today Armenian property and possessions stolen from them are in the hands of Turks.

These Turks raped Armenians, killed entire families, personally stole their possessions. They still have SLAVERY for FUCKS SAKE! Every year Turks kidnap foreigners and force them into prostitution, the police are all corrupt and actively work with brothels.

Turkey will commit genocide again if we don't act, Hitler tried to hide the genocide of the Jews from Germans as well... not so with the Turks, the citizens all took place in the genocide of the Armenians, is it any surprise that they all angrily deny it happened? Grandpa raped a 6 month year old baby is hardly a Muslim family memory they want to admit to.


Course, USA is also 'allies' with Pakistan, and they also committed a much more recent genocide (Bangladesh, 1971, ~1.5 million killed), created the Taliban, protect Al Qeda, so no surprise America befriends murderous savage people.

[Alfred909]

EmperorLiam wrote:

"Deliberately annoying Turkey over something that happened almost a century ago is directly detrimental to the war effort."

Our 'war effort' should also be directed AGAINST Turkey, they are just as much an enemy to humanity and Democracy as Iran or Al Qeda. These people committed genocide, and were never punished for it. Even today Armenian property and possessions stolen from them are in the hands of Turks.

These Turks raped Armenians, killed entire families, personally stole their possessions. They still have SLAVERY for FUCKS SAKE! Every year Turks kidnap foreigners and force them into prostitution, the police are all corrupt and actively work with brothels.

Turkey will commit genocide again if we don't act, Hitler tried to hide the genocide of the Jews from Germans as well... not so with the Turks, the citizens all took place in the genocide of the Armenians, is it any surprise that they all angrily deny it happened? Grandpa raped a 6 month year old baby is hardly a Muslim family memory they want to admit to.


Course, USA is also 'allies' with Pakistan, and they also committed a much more recent genocide (Bangladesh, 1971, ~1.5 million killed), created the Taliban, protect Al Qeda, so no surprise America befriends murderous savage people.

I don't disagree that the genocide happened, but it was caused by the Ottoman Empire. Shortly after the Genocide, the Empire fell and Turkey came to be. So this brings up the historical debate on, should we hold things against people of a certain ethnicity because there ancestors did something wrong.

One of the reasons why so many disbelieved the atrocities of Hitler, was that such atrocities were claimed before during WWI. Hitler used that to his advantage.

I also don't disagree that Slavery is happening in Turkey. My problem is finding evidence to it.

I found [a href="http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/2004/31063.htm"]this[/a] [a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html"]this[/a] and [a href="http://www.adoptaturkey.org/activists_letter.htm"]this[/a]. (The last one compares slavery to eating Turkey for Thanksgiving, because both are traditions. Pretty dumb, but the other two links give great information.)

The next question is this, What do we do to transport troops and equipment to Iraq. We don't have planes that can travel that far with that much cargo. So they must land somewhere. It becomes a lesser of evils choice in that matter. I'm not saying that Turkey is the greatest, but it seems to be progressing.

We have slavery in the US. [a href="http://lic.law.ufl.edu/~hernandez/Trade/21slaves.pdf"]The ice cream sellers in Yakima Washington[/a] were from Mexico, but were then kidnapped and taken to Yakima.... No joke. They had to sell Ice Cream to earn freedom. Does this mean that we should hold the people of Yakima for the slavery. Most I have met didn't even know about it. It is unknown what entire organizations were used to have such strange cruelty happen.

What then comes into question is the way the Tibetan Monks treated the common man. By some claims the Monks lived in relative riches by using the local people as slaves. Once again no joke, check out Bullshit by Penn and Teller. The video would be tough to link. So just do a search for it. Warning: The swear... A lot!

So it gets into some interesting politics. I don't disagree that the genocide happened, neither do I disagree on the Slavery. I am just wondering what would be the better solution.

[BartSimpson]

All of the issues with China lately boil down to the common denominator that they won't let the Yuan float on the world market and instead are keeping it artificially low by pegging it to the dollar.

If China lets the Yuan float their problems with the USA will magically go away over night.

[Jabrwock]

It's a simple difference.

Pissing off China doesn't do much, because the quest for the almighty dollar will mean they will still sell their stuff to us, no matter how angry they are.

Pissing off Turkey, means threatening the ability of the US to use Turkey as a regional base. Plus they lose any influence when it comes to discouraging Turkey from invading northern Iraq to deal with the PKK attacks.

[Calbeck]

I think it need merely be noted that the US Congress has already passed two resolutions condemning the matter as a genocide, plus Reagan issued a presidential proclamation saying the same thing. Plus the US founded the Near East Aid relief organization which raised $100M between 1915-1930 to assist the victims of the genocide.

There's only two reasons to go through it all again: one is to placate Armenian voters who have not receiving much public attention since 1930 despite the previous resolutions and proclamations. The other is to put Bush between the anvil of foreign policy and the hammer of public opinion.

If he goes with the resolution, he offends Turkey and potentially puts our armed forces in Iraq --- who depend on routes through Turkey for 70% of all logistics in theatre --- at risk. If he goes against it, he can be attacked as having no principles. So either way he loses.

[Quantum_Wizard]

EmperorLiam:

Your stance is ridiculous.

How many present day Turks can be blamed for a massacre that happened over 90 years ago? Their unwillingness to admit it is a bit unsatisfactory, but you are blowing things out of proportions.

Remember also that Turkey is a democratic country (though there are some things that leave a bit to be desired for, like meddling by army in politics).