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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:00 am
 


Coivat makes a convincing argument.

Here are some summaries of recent US Senatorial party switchers.
- Jim Jeffords - In the Nov 2000 election, the Republicans won the US Presidency, House of Reps, and had a 50-50 even split in the Senate (the V.P. casts tie-breaker votes in the Senate, giving Republicans control there, too). Jeffords, with a promise of an important leadership position from the Democrat leader Tom Daschle but citing growing Republican disfavor with moderates, left the party in May 2001 to become an independent who would caucus with Democrats "for organizational purposes". This tipped control of the Senate to the Democrat Party, 49-50 (or, some say, 49-51).
- Joe Lieberman was perhaps the only Democrat to advocate for the war in Iraq. Popular in his home state of Connecticut but unpopular with his party, he found the Democrats choosing another candidate in the 2006 election. Lacking any party backing, he ran as an independent and won. He still claims loyalty to the Democrats on all issues except national defense and foreign policy. (He's also the most prominent Jewish politician in the USA today or ever.)
- Bernie Sanders ran in 2006 to replace the retiring Jim Jeffords. Though he ran as an independent, he also won and turned down their party's nomination. Official federal records list him as an "Independent Democrat". Is turning down a party's nomination the same as switching parties?

Party switching and independent candidates in the USA seem to favor the Democrats.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:45 am
 


My God, I have been champing at the bit to contribute to this thread ever since I saw it, but I had to wait until catastrophic hard drive failure issues were worked out. Oh, computers, why must you be so cruel? Anyway, I hope Psudo didn't miss me too much. :P

Okay, so, going back a bit to the concept of parties. They're not the greatest idea in the world. They tend to take the issues every individual member cares about and kind of crunch them together in a way not unlike shipping something via UPS. I tend to vote Democrat because the Libertarians will never stand a chance anyway, and Democrats are better than Republicans on social issues (gay rights, etc.) but I disapprove of many of their stances, including but not limited to gun control and universal health care. Were it not for the big two parties having such a stranglehold, the Libertarian option might be more viable, but even then I severely disagree with their stance on the environment.

Unfortunately, doing away with parties altogether is simply not a viable alternative. The United States did not originally have parties, but it took the first few politicians all of five seconds to realize that X guys who are idealogically close enough to sort of get along and act as one force are X times as powerful as any one member of a group of size X acting alone. You see examples of this concept even today when you hear anyone whining about third parties being "spoilers" in anything. There was a lot of overlap between the stances of one H. Ross Perot and one George H. W. Bush, and the two competing with each other split the conservative vote enough that it was arguably one of the larger factors in Bill Clinton's victory. (Of course, Bush's son would go on to avenge his father against Clinton's Vice-President in an almost exact mirror of this concept, thanks to one Ralph Nader.) In Canada, the myriad conservative parties had to quit squabbling and become the Conservative party before they could hope to topple the Liberals.

In other words, parties exist because they work. The only possible way to do without parties is to forcibly disband them by law. That's the only possible way--thanks to various workarounds like unofficial endorsements and the resources it would require to chase those down, there is absolutely no practical way to do it.

As for floor-crossing, I think that just illustrates the difference between Canadian and United States legislature. In Canada, there are essentially four decision-makers in Parliament, and the MPs serve as little more than statistics for the big guys' strength, kind of like your amount of units in a game of Risk. In the United States, breaking from party lines is more tolerated (and some people, like John McCain, even build a very popular "maverick" public image out of it.) Thus, I think there's less floor-crossing in the United States, since it's easier to work out how you feel about the issues before you start and simply vote against your party on the few mismatches, thus protecting you from everything except when you as a person actually genuinely change your mind on things, like how Robert Byrd started as a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan but has now recently gotten near-perfect ratings from the NAACP.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:27 am
 


This debate is particularly interesting to me, because my school's student union recently banned political parties from the upcoming student elections. In the past, our union elections were always dominated by small, student-run parties, which critics said corrupted the system and denied real choice and debate, etc.

So I am keen to see whether or not a party ban will be effective at this very micro-level. It will be one of my jobs to enforce the ban, and already the logistics are giving me a headache.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:38 am
 


Kjorteo wrote:
Anyway, I hope Psudo didn't miss me too much. :P
Haha, I was wondering what happened to you.

Kjorteo wrote:
There was a lot of overlap between the stances of one H. Ross Perot and one George H. W. Bush, and the two competing with each other split the conservative vote enough that it was arguably one of the larger factors in Bill Clinton's victory. (Of course, Bush's son would go on to avenge his father against Clinton's Vice-President in an almost exact mirror of this concept, thanks to one Ralph Nader.)
Not quite identical examples. Ross Perot got 20 million votes (20% of the popular vote) in 1992, whereas Ralph Nader got just 3 million (3%) in 2000. 1992 was a dramatically stronger example of the effect.

But I concede your point about the influence of 3rd parties having a bad reputation.

J.J. wrote:
It will be one of my jobs to enforce the ban [on parties], and already the logistics are giving me a headache.
Luck and aspirin to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:18 pm
 


The problem we have to understand with parties is that they have no legal grounds to exist, but also no legal grounds to force their non-existence (except in Nebraska's Legislature). Although we may like to think each human being is an reasonable, thinking, individual, it's in our nature to form groups, no matter how permanent or ephemeral they might be.


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