[CanadianJeff]

frankly McCain just proved one thing to me.

He really doesn't have a bloody thing on Obama that he can really use so he's starting to go in circles by stating the bloody obvious.

If all you can state is the obvious....well how is this guy really so different from Bush?

Frankly is Obama really even bad? If this is honestly the worst the republicans can dig up on the man....At least that's my thoughts when I see this campain. It just brings out the blaring question of what the heck is McCain's point?

[thefremen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... ge_W._Bush

George Bush said that God chose him to be president. Considering that the new improved version of John McCain (totally different from the one who tried to pass anti-torture bills and balance the budget) is best buds with GW, isn't this a very odd platform to stand on?

[Psudo]

There's nothing shocking about McCain's messiah complex comments about Obama. Half of Republicans already believed it before McCain said it, so he's just endearing himself to those conservatives who would have preferred Huckabee or Romney win the party's nomination.

We all agree Obama is enjoying a kind of celebrity status. Our dispute is why: is it because of his substantive stances on important issues, or is it a rock star status granted him by partial press portrayal? The answer can be proven by the answer to another question: what are Obama's top three policy priorities? If you can answer that without googling, he's got a substantive message out (to you, at least). If you can't, he's riding a wave of popular press and McCain's ad is spot-on.

I think the more important point of the ad and the toon, though, is not whether it is right but whether it is funny. Which I think it is. So I like it, even if it does nothing other than reflect popular sentiment rather than some proven factual truth.

JJ wrote:

There were site problems and also I had surgery.

I infer from your nonchalant attitude that the surgery went well and you're good health.

[Psudo]

Murray_Smith wrote:

What is Barack doing that Jesus hasn't done?

Running for political office, riding around in first-class comfort, and pandering to voters come to mind.

Murray_Smith wrote:

If the opposition is comparing him to Moses, then, yes, the man is ready to lead.

Exodus 4:10 wrote:

And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

That doesn't sound like Obama to me.

[Lumpy]

Quote:

So I like it, even if it does nothing other than reflect popular sentiment rather than some proven factual truth.

There's a point at which a joke based on ignorance or misconception is harmless and funny for me and a point where it crosses the line into spreading it (i.e., when Charlie Chaplain steps over the banana peel and falls into the manhole, the Manhole Workers of America Association shouldn't be protesting). Besides, I don't see any popular conceptions of this aside from the RNC.

This week McCain made a big deal of Obama talking about things Americans can do at home to save gas, like checking tire pressure, which TIME Magazine says would save about three times as much oil as offshore drilling would produce. McCain said that he wants alternative energy solutions like offshore drilling "and Obama wants to check your tires." If Obama told you that you could reduce carbon emissions by checking your light bulbs, or mentioning that American parents need to be more responsible in combating childhood obesity by making sure tubby puts down the fork, I get the feeling McCain would berate Obama for saying that he wants to change your lightbulbs and have the government regulate your children's diets.

That element feels a bit like traditional elements of conservatism, that we can all pitch in together with personal responsibility to make our country with citizenship and blah blah blah, and McCain is just grasping at whatever he can to attack, "respectful campaign" or not be damned.

[CanAm1]

It's summer, most people aren't paying attention to politics right now. This stuff won't get serious until after the kids are back in school. For all their stumping and trips overseas they got nothing out of it. Most polls still show them in a dead heat.

[Zipperfish]

I think the campaign has been pretty respectful, so far. Clearly you have to attack your opponent in politics. Campaign managers try different approaches, different ways to exploit perceived flaws in their opponents, or to use their candidate's strength. They evetually set upon the approach that capttures the zeitgeist, the mood of the people. Obama proved invulnerable to some earlier attacks, but teh Messiah thing has proved to have legs--it's captured the people's imagination. It's kind of a clever "Art of War" tactic. Since trying to exploit perceived flaws in Obama's campaign wasn't working, they focussed on exploiting his perceived flawlessness and use that against him.

The Democrats, last I checked, are focussing on portraying McCain as simply a Bush acolyte, as opposed to the maverick image that McCain tries to project.

IOt should be an interesting race. I'm just ecstatic that Bush will soon be gone, so I don't care too much who wins--at this point anyways.

[Chumley]

Psudo wrote:

We all agree Obama is enjoying a kind of celebrity status. Our dispute is why: is it because of his substantive stances on important issues, or is it a rock star status granted him by partial press portrayal?

Or is it because he is black?

[Psudo]

Lumpy wrote:

This week McCain made a big deal of Obama talking about things Americans can do at home to save gas, like checking tire pressure, which TIME Magazine says would save about three times as much oil as offshore drilling would produce. McCain said that he wants alternative energy solutions like offshore drilling "and Obama wants to check your tires."

Sure, there's something that seems short-sighted about drilling for more oil; it's obviously not a creative solution to just do more of what we're already doing. On the other hand, there's something illogical about trying to increase energy supply by cutting demand, and a potential US president asking us to do minor auto maintenance seems like nanny-statism. There's nothing wrong with criticisms of either side here. And if you can get your criticisms garnished with a chuckle or two, all the better.

Lumpy wrote:

Or is it because he is black?

Half-black, technically. Unless you mean culturally black.

If he's getting the rock-star treatment because of his race, though, isn't that a sign that the same effect we expect from affirmative action is happening without institutional mandates and we can treat people like they're created equal again?

[Psudo]

thefremen wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_faith_of_George_W._Bush

George Bush said that God chose him to be president.

I probably shouldn't respond to this, but I'm gonna.

If you follow the link and read the quote, Bush says "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."

The word 'chose' isn't in there. The 'God chose' line comes from an anti-Bush book, not from Bush's mouth or pen.

He doesn't say God selected him for office, that he is God's candidate, that he's fulfilling a divine purpose, nor even that God wanted him to win (failed presidential candidates are still relevant to a country in need, as are ex-governors).

He doesn't ask people to defer to him as God's representative; on the contrary, he sounds like he's deferring to God, deciding to endure personal and family hardship to do what God wants. In that God is symbolic of moral rightness or goodness to Christians, he's expressing his dedication to defying his own faults in order to do what is right or good.

Whether you believe in God or not, isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't we support people's attempts better themselves, to "embrace the better angels of our nature" as Lincoln put it?

He does imply a little more of a personal connection than is typical, but even conceding that he only implies something that is only slightly off of mainstream. What is it, 45% of Americans that believe in a personal God? Only with an unrealistic bias does his statement sound egotistical or theocratic rather than intimate and human, either bias against any mention of 'God' or bias against the President himself.

The 'Bush said God chose him' line is pure propaganda. He never said anything of the sort.

[CanadianJeff]

Frankly well freaking said Psudo. Personally I would be ansy with any president who pretty much openly admits "I feel some divine power is pushing me to do this" as his reasoning but you certainly can't kick a man for something he didn't say.

Truth is always a good thing.

[Lumpy]

Quote:

a potential US president asking us to do minor auto maintenance seems like nanny-statism

It sounds to me like how Herbert Hoover insisted and urged the public to do volunteer work during the Great Depression. When you have a problem of a certain magnitude, without taking the position that a problem does not exist or that the government should intervene with regulations and programs, I think that comes close to the opposite of nanny-statism. It relies on an optimism in the American people to solve part of the problem through mass group effort, and I think criticizing that would have posed a problem for McCain, who might have not be able to say that without coming across as saying the American people are too lazy and irresponsible to bother. He said a few days later that he was not criticizing the idea of inflating your tires, and the American Auto Association recommends it, then dropped the subject.

Well, now after a week of reading 1920s American history and pondering how current American economic policies relate to 1920s ones, I've gone and found a similarity between Obama and Hoover. That ruins everything.

Quote:

Half-black, technically. Unless you mean culturally black.

I didn't say what you responded to, and I thought the ad was implying that he was as popular as he is only because he was black, but that's only what I get when I think about it long and hard while considering all the late night talk show stops McCain has made.

Quote:

the same effect we expect from affirmative action is happening without institutional mandates and we can treat people like they're created equal again

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html

It doesn't look like that glass ceiling Nancy Pelosi broke in 2007 put any dent in this wage gap.

[Psudo]

Lumpy wrote:

He [McCain] said a few days later that he was not criticizing the idea of inflating your tires, and the American Auto Association recommends it, then dropped the subject.

I'm not criticizing proper auto maintenance either. I'm criticizing the idea that it's any of the President's business whether my tires are properly inflated. I also criticized the idea that energy conservation can ever lower demand enough to increase supply.

I certainly prefer him asking us to properly maintain our cars rather than passing a law. But his attention to minor individual behavior as a national concern worries me.

Lumpy wrote:

I thought the ad was implying that he was as popular as he is only because he was black

Obviously it's claiming he's getting special media attention, but I didn't get an implication that it was because he was black. I guess it could be, since it's common enough for conservatives to perceive special consideration provided to demographic minorities to the exclusion of the majorities and to object to it as racist or similar bias. But I don't see any part of the ad that wouldn't work just as well if Obama's skin had been white.

Lumpy wrote:

It doesn't look like that glass ceiling Nancy Pelosi broke in 2007 put any dent in this wage gap.

Okay. My point was that if being black gives a candidate a benefit in running then that shows a racial bias in favor of blacks (or perhaps minorities generally) and we no longer need to artificially create a pro-minority bias via affirmative action. You dispute (by symbolic parallel) that there is a bias in favor of blacks, which suggests Obama is winning despite (rather than because of) his skin color. As such, my logic isn't disputed, but merely doesn't apply. The 'then' part isn't true because the 'if' part isn't true, but the complete if/then clause is still true.

But if there isn't a bias in favor of blacks (which I never claimed there was), Obama's alleged "messiah complex" is not a product of such a bias. It must not be race-based because the racial bias is in the opposite direction. Thus, the "messiah complex" commercial is not racist but personal.

Thank you for proving the McCain ad is not racially motivated for me.

[Lumpy]

Quote:

But his attention to minor individual behavior as a national concern worries me.

Does John McCain's reminding Americans to wear suntan lotion when they go outside worry you just as much?

I still don't get why Obama is a celebrity, and not just a popular politician, any more than McCain is. Why is drawing lots of crowds a bad thing? I can't imagine the ad applying to any of the other primary contestants than Obama. Except for John Edwards, had he won while not having betrayed his country with his extramarital affair, due to the hair YouTube video. The motivation does not make sense to me any other way, unless it comes from the same logic that produced Chicago Tribune and Wall Street Journal articles wondering if Obama is too skinny in a nation of people too fat to become President, where physical fitness, intelligence, and any other positive aspect becomes automatically synonymous with arrogance and elitism, playing on the hope that someone will walk away with the idea that "that guy thinks he's better than me just because he still has all his 32 teeth!"

Quote:

It must not be race-based because the racial bias is in the opposite direction

You mean that it can't be racist because it accuses Obama of being popular because he were black, and if that were the case such an ad would not work? There were 20% of West Virginians that voted against Obama in the primaries that said race was important, and 10% in Ohio (though in North Carolina, Obama gained 7% or half of his lead from racism) The underlying suggestion wouldn't need to be true for the desired effect to happen.

What I found stupid about the reaction to the ad, though, was people MSNBC and CNN had as guests wondering if it was racist because it had two white women in it, or monuments Obama spoke in front of looked like male genitalia.

Also, I'm sorry I thought you were talking about votes and candidacy instead of wages

[CommanderSock]

Quote:

And who doesn't trust their Grandpa?

Whoaa there buddy....When it comes to a nation of 300 million, and wielding potentially the world's largest armed forces, I'm not so sure about forgetful "Grandpa"!

Quote:

Obama, on the other hand, has a lot of good going for him. He's charming, warm, and has that 10-watt smile. But my main concern about him at this point is exactly what the ad was targeting and exactly what the cartoon is over; I'm afraid that he's starting to buy into his own propaganda. Ironically, McCain has been through similar straits; in the 2000 election he called his campaign a 'Crusade'. What happened afterwards for McCain is that he turned angry and personal, while Bush kept up his 'friendly but dumb' persona. Obama seems to be starting on his own dark path to Hubris and a subsequent downfall. This is where his inexperience could hit him hard, if he continues to let himself get caught up in the moment.

Obama seems to be slipping up due to over-coverage of him. People may be getting a bit tired of seeing him, especially centrist/right-ish voters.