[Psudo]

Pseudonym expressed interest in my religion, so I decided to start a thread about it. It's an evangelical religion, so it's my moral duty anyway, haha. I'll start with a bare-bones introduction.

History: Back in the 1830s there was a boy named Joseph Smith Jr. He was raised in a family of Christian non-conformists in a place and era known as the "Burned Over District" because of the religious fervor taking place. In this religiously charged environment, he claimed to have been visited by heavenly personages who gave him religious advice and, eventually, a book of ancient scripture he was to translate into English. He developed a following, released that translated book which he titled "The Book of Mormon", and started a religion called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" (LDS for short).

The religion was extremely controversial for a variety of reasons, and though the religion quickly grew in membership its adherents relocated their headquarters several times to escape mistreatment. About the time of Joseph Smith's death, the church broke up into factions over internal disputes and the faction that became the modern LDS Church set off into the wilderness to build a "city of Zion" in the wilderness. They settled the Salt Lake Valley in modern Utah in 1847 and settled a great deal of the mountain west. Today, the church consists of nearly 14 million members, about a quarter of which live in Utah, a quarter in the rest of the USA, and the remaining half in the rest of the world.

Distinction: There are two other prominent Churches and a scattering of small ones that have beliefs that can be traced back to Joseph Smith. The most commonly known are the "Community of Christ" (formerly "the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" or RLDS Church, numbering about a quarter million) and "the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" (or FLDS Church, numbering perhaps 10,000). I don't know a whole lot about either of them, have no insider's perspective, and none of the three maintain any doctrine consultations, ordinances, records, or leadership in common. They're not my church. Wikipedia is just as good a source on these as I am.

Doctrine: I've previously written a short summary of the core beliefs of the LDS Church. LDS doctrine believes quite a few things that make us unique among Christians: we believe in more scripture than what is found in the Bible and that it is just as true; we believe there were prophets in every age in history, including modern times, whether we have records of them or not; we believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two distinct individuals and that they have physical as well as spiritual forms; we believe that all the miracles and powers available to the saints and prophets in the Scriptures are possible today among similarly righteous and faithful people; we believe in a more complex afterlife than merely heaven and hell to handle more complex morality than merely sinner and saint; we believe that certain specific ordinations, such as baptism, should be done by official religious authorities and are necessary for some of the best blessings in the afterlife; we believe that some of those ordinances can only be done in Temples, houses of God built for that purpose; in one of those ordinances, we believe modern authorities can seal a family together for eternity, using the same power Jesus gave to St. Peter in Matthew 18:18 ("What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven"). And there are many others, too.

Scripture: In addition to the stories of the Bible, we also believe the stories of the Book of Mormon which largely consists of a group of families who left Jerusalem more than 600 years BC, who traveled to some place in the Western Hemisphere and established great nations and civilizations that rose and fell for a thousand years. We also believe in a book of scripture called Doctrine & Covenants, which consists of the revelations given to modern Prophets including and since Joseph Smith. We also believe in a book called The Pearl of Great Price, which is a collection of smaller bits of translation performed by Joseph Smith during his life which largely relate to Abraham and Moses.

There you go, 160 years of history in 5 paragraphs. As for my credentials, I have none. I am LDS, I believe it has more heavenly authority and doctrine than any other church on the planet. I've been a reasonably faithful member for about 20 years, but I don't hold any significant role within the church (by choice). I'm not a scholar of any note, but I know the basics thoroughly and some trivia besides. I'm not looking for a fight, but I'll answer any polite questions to the best of my ability.

[commanderkai]

I was actually surprised that my grade 11 Government teacher was a Mormon, always having the image that they were more of a cult within Utah and nowhere else. But meh, it was a good read, even if I try to avoid internal Christian arguments...though I've lived in way too many Irish Protestant neighborhoods

[Psudo]

Yeah, being only a few percent of the population and having a total history of less than two centuries, a good chunk of it spent in isolation, makes us somewhat of an unknown.

There's a comedy film about that very topic made by members of the LDS Church. Trailer for "American Mormon".

[djakeydd]

When the "elders" come a knockin on my door next I plan on telling them to get out of their man inspired, as opposed to God, works based, as opposed to grace driven, anti - Christian religion. It's a one way ticket to a place no one wants to be. For anyone who has questions, just pick up the KJV Bible, and read John chapter 1 vs 1 and 1st John 5 vs. 7. But don't stop there, read the whole of it and you will find that Mormonism is not a Christian religion, it is an abomination to God.

[N_Fiddledog]

Psudo wrote:

Yeah, being only a few percent of the population and having a total history of less than two centuries, a good chunk of it spent in isolation, makes us somewhat of an unknown.

There's a comedy film about that very topic made by members of the LDS Church. Trailer for "American Mormon".

Is it as good as the South Park one? All About Mormons

[herbie]

They came here to build great civilizations in 600 BC with a book. Forgot to bring bronze, iron, agriculture, horses or even the bloody wheel.

[fifeboy]

herbie wrote:

They came here to build great civilizations in 600 BC with a book. Forgot to bring bronze, iron, agriculture, horses or even the bloody wheel.

And how could

Quote:

Back in the 1930s there was a boy named Joseph Smith Jr.

when the dude died in 1844?

herbie, you forgot the chicken, how could they forget the chicken?

[Psudo]

Coincidentally, djakeydd, the King James Version of the Bible is the most popular version among English-literate Mormons and the one I've always read personally.

People who lived at the time of Moses saw new scripture written in their time and after. People who lived at the time of King David, Jesus, and Paul did, too. If scripture was written then, I see no reason it shouldn't continue be written now and in the future. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). He was an author then, and He is an author now.

N_Fiddledog, I've only seen the trailer for "American Mormon". Man-on-the-street stuff isn't really my style. Then again, neither is South Park, so I can't really judge.

I did see that episode, though. It seemed generally accurate, except obviously I don't agree that Joseph Smith's mistake discredits the religion he founded. Moses made a similar mistake in Exodus 4:10-14. He begs not to be God's messenger because he's afraid he is not eloquent enough to persuade people. "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses" (14). Similarly, Jonah tried to escape preaching God's word, famously resulting in God sending a "great fish" to swallow him whole (Jonah 1). It's a Biblical truth: Prophets make mistakes and get God angry, too. It doesn't invalidate the doctrine they teach.

Fifeboy, I was being very approximate. He was born in 1805 and died in 1844.

[CanadianJeff]

Well I did a bit of research and I have two questions.

1. What happened to the golden plates and the breastplate? Shouldn't they still be around somewhere or were they destroyed during the moron war?

2. What about Polygamy. I know many sects of LDS are accused of it and some do openly practice it.

[Psudo]

CanadianJeff wrote:

1. What happened to the golden plates and the breastplate?

Joseph Smith originally found the plates when an angel named Moroni showed him where they were. Once Joseph Smith had translated the plates and had been allowed to show the plates to various witnesses as evidence they were real, he returned them to Moroni. (The testimony of such witnesses is printed on the page before the title page in every copy of the Book of Mormon.)

The final resting place of the breastplate is disputed. Some think it was returned to Moroni along with the plates; some think it is kept somewhere by the LDS Church leadership and perhaps still used to aid revelation. Mormons tend not to be as eager to keep track of religious artifacts as Catholics are.

When you say "moron war", I assume you mean the "Mormon War", aka the "Utah War". I greatly doubt the breastplate was destroyed then, but those events did inspire the LDS Church's current policy of never endorsing political parties or candidates to encourage Constitutionally-mandated separation of Church and State. It is LDS doctrine that the Constitution of the United States and it's authors were divinely influenced, and that the the freedom of religion it established made it possible for the LDS Church to be established (or "for the truth to be restored", to use a common LDS saying). We have no interest in pitting Church vs. Constitution, as we consider both to be righteous institutions.

CanadianJeff wrote:

2. What about Polygamy?

Joseph Smith once prayed to God asking how David and Solomon and Issac and others could have been considered righteous men when they all had multiple wives and sometimes concubines. The essence of God's response was You can't understand the laws of polygamy unless you live them. followed by orders to do so and how it should work. It wasn't a general permission for any man to have more than one wife, but rather an individual, personal calling from the LDS Church (and, thus, from God) to do so. It wasn't "Feel free to marry whoever you like", but rather "You specifically should marry her specifically." To have multiple wives without Divine approval was always punishable by excommunication from the Church. Aside from Church approval, there were three parties who also had to agree: the bride, the groom, and any other wives the groom already had. It was strictly voluntary and strictly regulated.

This commandment was one of the reasons for internal dissension in the LDS Church in the 1840s, which led many who rejected polygamy to leave and form the RLDS Church (today known as Community Of Christ and numbering about a quarter million). In 1890, the head of the LDS Church, who is a prophet in LDS theology and was a polygamist himself, declared the practice ended. Since then, mainline LDS Church has refused to approve any extra wives even in nations in which polygamy is legal, and polygamy has since been grounds for excommunication everywhere in the LDS Church.

On that announcement, a small number left the LDS Church and formed "The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints", or FLDS Church. They number perhaps 10,000 today, and are under constant investigation by the FBI and other government agencies. A few years ago, the head of that Church was listed on the FBI's most wanted list, and was eventually caught, tried, and convicted of arranging sex between underage girls and middle-aged men on the premise of "spiritual" polygamist marriages that were unrecognized by law. From prison, he issued letters denouncing himself as an immoral man and claimed he had never been the true prophet of his church. (At the time, I happened to live in the city where the trial was held.)

The LDS Church has been adamant in declaring "There are not 'sects' of Mormons." The meaning of this is that distinctions between Mormon groups is not just differences in doctrine and practice, as in Protestant churches, but also a difference in divine authority comparable to schism within the Catholic Church. If an FLDS member joins an LDS church or visa versa, they must be converted, baptized, confirmed members of the Church, as they do not recognize each other's authority to perform such ordinances. The separation between different Mormon Churches is dramatically greater than between, say, Methodists and Presbyterians. I typically compare it to the differences between Catholics and the Amish, since the ratio of their sizes of the two pairs is also very similar (about 1400:1) and some FLDS practices remind me of the Amish (isolated communities, resistance to technological change, etc).

It's hard for modern members of the LDS Church to think of polygamy as anything but a mistake from 100 years ago, but the revelation of that doctrine was intermingled with the revelation of a doctrine modern Mormons hold very dear: eternal marriage. The ability to be married not just "'til death do you part" but in the afterlife as well is a beautiful thing, and something that often attracts people to the LDS Church. But the same revelation covered both topics. Thus, debate in LDS circles continues about why exactly polygamy was ever followed at all.

[Pseudonym]

Alright, since I sorta incited this discussion, I guess I should start chipping in my questions.
First, so I can have a baseline for my other questions:

1. Do you believe in the inerrancy of the Word of God insofar as it is correctly interpreted?

By Word of God, I am referring of course to your set of Scriptures: The Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. You said "just as true", so that leaves some wiggle room I want to tie down.

[fifeboy]

Psudo wrote:

Fifeboy, I was being very approximate. He was born in 1805 and died in 1844.

Plus or minus 1 century.

[Psudo]

Wow, am I thick. I finally noticed that date contained a 9 and replace it with an 8. Thank you, Fifeboy, for catching that and for having patience with me.

Pseudonym wrote:

1. Do you believe in the inerrancy of the Word of God insofar as it is correctly interpreted?

In short, yes.

In long, Joseph Smith wrote "We [Mormons] believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." The only difference in their "inerrancy" is that the Book of Mormon was translated miraculously by divine power while the Bible was translated from language to language by mortal linguistic experts. But the words of the prophets, as written by their own hand, are God's own teachings without error or exception exactly as you said. Insofar as I've interpreted you correctly. =]

The Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price fit into that same category. They were not mentioned in that quote because they weren't yet known to Joseph Smith; he hadn't yet written the former, and hadn't yet translated the latter. But as we accept him as a prophet, we also accept his doctrines as inerrant descriptions of God's doctrines.

[fifeboy]

This thread appears to be the online equivalent of:


We should not have opened the door!

[Pseudonym]

Alright, here's a more in-depth question regarding doctrine. Some of my Mormon friends have stated that the Marital state (as in, being married) is superior to the unmarried state. Do you agree, and how does that reconcile with Paul's writings in I Corinthians, particularly in chapter 7?