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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:08 am
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Republican religions (click to view)
Date: October 12, 2011
As we discuss on the Filibuster podcast this week, good ol' Mitt Romney has once again found himself in the midst of controversy regarding the compatibility of his religious faith with that of the Republican base. During last week's always influential Values Voter Summit in Washington D.C. (you can tell it's influential because Ron Paul won their straw poll), Dallas megachurch pastor, and avid Rick Perry supporter Robert Jeffress took time out of his speaking schedule to lecture reporters about why Romney was clearly not the Christian choice.

"Mitt Romney's a good moral person, but he's not a Christian," he said. "Mormonism is not Christianity. It has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of Christianity."

And just like that, the press has gone gonzo, once again returning to the never tiresome "is American ready for a Mormon president?" trope that they got so much mileage out of back in 2008. Granted, the question may be a bit more pressing now. With Romney his party's obvious frontrunner in a way he never was in '08, the seeming inevitability of his victory is just the sort of thing to prompt a ton of last minute second-guessing, especially among large portions of the GOP right who have never much wanted the man to be their standard-bearer in the first place. Add that to the fact that Romney presently has so many candidates running to his right, and you can see that there's certainly a strong possibility for the former governor's primary opponents to make gains from exploiting his vulnerability on this issue.

Evoking memories of the ambiguous answers some Republicans gave when confronted with the "birther" question back in the day, Michelle Bachmann and Herman Cain have both pointedly refused to denounce the "cult" comments outright, saying only that Romney is clearly a religious man and has a right to believe whatever he believes. Perry himself gave a clear "no," but has also not engaged in any of the traditional political theatrics of publicly severing his relationship with Pastor Jeffress, implying the man hasn't really done anything too offensive.



Just out of personal interest, I've been learning more about Mormonism and the LDS Church lately, and while I'm no theologian, it's clear that the religion is so elaborate and revolutionary, in terms of the amount of new scripture and new understandings of Christ and biblical history it introduces, it's not hard to understand how a learned man in some other, more traditional denomination could make the case that the faith is simply too "out there" to be regarded as part of Christianity proper. Mormons, of course, argue that their faith is, in fact, the only legitimate form of Christianity, period, since all their new stuff — the Book of Mormon and the decrees of their latter-day prophets and so forth — has been delivered directly from the same the Christian god who gave us everything else. The whole point of denominations in the first place is to make these sorts of claims of exclusive truth and knowledge. A doctrinaire Baptist like Jeffress would have an almost equally large problem with the supposedly un-Christian "deviations" of Catholicism, for example — and actually did state such criticisms of the Catholic Church in this follow-up interview with Anderson Cooper.

The question is whether this kind of theological nit-picking actually matters, even to the aggressively Christian voters who will doubtlessly play a large role in the Iowa and South Carolina primaries that decide Romney's fate. We sometimes lose track of this basic fact, but among those Evangelicals et al who vote "faith and values," the Christianity of candidates is just as often viewed as a means to an end as it is an end unto itself. That is to say, while it's all well and jolly to have a guy in the White House who attends the same sort of Sunday services as you do, the bigger priority is that he promote the sorts of policies and causes that are consistent with your religiously-inspired principles of right and wrong, and not intentionally lead American down the path of immorality and sin. By this logic, even an atheist candidate could be somewhat palatable so long as he championed the sort of hard-right anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-HPV vaccination, anti-whatever agenda that religious conservatives have been pushing for so many decades. Even Pastor Jeffress himself has admitted that he'd gladly vote for a cultist like Romney before a socialist pro-sodomy Christian like President Obama, if that's what it came down.

But if the Mormon fear-mongering gets too intense, and some of the... I guess... "colorfully unconventional" beliefs of the LDS Church become too widespread in public gossip, it seems possible that Romney could suffer simply through his association with a religion that voters deem too ridiculous or goofy to be befitting of presidential intelligence. I don't know enough about the Church to pass those kinds of judgements myself, but one can certainly expect many liberal activists during the general election — should Romney make it that far — to have little shame using the few damning Mormon facts they do know to try and taint the former governor with just such a kook image.

When asked, most Americans early declare themselves willing to vote for just about any sort of guy (or gal) for president, and state that superficial variables like the candidate's race, religion, and lifestyle matter little when compared to the bigger concerns of values and competence. In my view, Romney's unusual faith presents no reason to call into question the former, but may eventually pose serious problems for the latter.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:50 pm
 


Technically, Mormons don't worship Joseph Smith. They worship God the Father via Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith is a guy who provided a lot of insight into how worship works, not an object of worship himself. Same for Catholics and the Pope.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:27 pm
 


The problem with sorting devices is that they virtually always acquire a life of their own. It isn't enough to share essentially the same values: too many ingrained prejudices and preconceptions pertain to people who don't formally subscribe to the same belief system. There's a lingering suspicion that you are: (A) subtly but substantially influenced by other belief systems, regardless of the evidence ("Obama the secret Muslim" or "Romney the Mormon"); (B) fundamentally unable to appreciate the deepest motivations, or share the purity of principle, of people who hold different religious beliefs ("not a God-fearing man"); and/or (C) have fundamentally missed some vitally important realization about how life is best spent, signaling a more fundamental character flaw, or else just confirming a certain, unalterable alienation from the community that, at least at face value, should feel comfortable supporting you. In other words, it isn't actually a sorting device; it's a community of shared understanding, and you're either in or out. For people who vote based on membership in that community, or the likelihood of leal service to that community, the "outsider" can never be more than a compromise candidate. At best, they stay home. At worst, they turn out to vote against you. Even where individual members of that community begin to emerge from the "groupthink," they have the damndest time shaking off years of what amounts to indoctrination. Indeed, they often still feel more comfortable committing to an individual who shares their faith despite real policy differences, than somebody with whom they have fewer obvious policy differences, and yet who does not take their stance on faith.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:53 pm
 


I don't see anyting th MOrmons believe as any less strange than the beliefs held by Catholics or Muslims. Just newer. My brother is a Jehovah Witness, which is also an American religion. Hopefully Mormons aren't as bleak as those guys. Anyways, religion doesn't make the man. I imagine he's Mormon because he was brought up Mormon. That's usually the way these things work.

I think they said the ame things about Jack Kennedy.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:57 pm
 


Like any religion, there good, decent Mormons and bottom of the barrel Mormons.

The problem sometimes is being able to differentiate between the two before it's too late. Again, applies to any religion.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:16 am
 


Psudo wrote:
Technically, Mormons don't worship Joseph Smith. They worship God the Father via Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith is a guy who provided a lot of insight into how worship works, not an object of worship himself. Same for Catholics and the Pope.


You can pray for people without necessarily praying to them. In any case, it was just supposed to be symbolism.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:38 am
 


Just a quick synopsis here: Christians worship God while Mormons want His job. :idea:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:00 pm
 


Don't forget, Catholicism is basically paganism with Christian labels. I really think that aspect needs to be played up.

These days, Benny 16 does little more than dictate the moral center of Catholics. In an earlier time, The Holy See was more like God's pimp hand.

Ed: Note that I speak as a disgruntled ex-Catholic.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:07 pm
 


You don't have to have a faith/religion to be morally strong. His faith or lack there of should not matter. Church and State are separated, so his religious affiliation should not interfere with his job. It wouldn't if he worked for Walmart, it shouldn't now.
If he would not be elected BECAUSE of his religion, it would be discrimination. At that is illegal.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:16 pm
 


The Mormons that I've met seemed to be relatively decent people, or at least no worse than any other religious demographic. As such I really can't see Romney* or Huntsman being all that bad if either one were elected President. At least there's no way they could either be anywhere near as disasterous as electing another Texas evangelical into the job.

Speaking of evangelicals, are they all really that clueless as to what the majority of people think are the genuinely important issues? Slandering and denigrating the "cultist" Mormons has to be about the least relevant or serious issue that needs to be addressed. Seriously, what sort of pocket universe do evangelicals live in that they think stupidity like this resonates with anyone at all who lives outside their own circles of inbreds and mental cases? :?

* I wouldn't vote against Romney for being Mormon, but I would definitely vote against him for surrounding himself with the very same neocon foreign policy advisors that authored the Iraq war for George W. Bush. Ummmm, derp?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:07 pm
 


I was raised Southern Baptist. I rembember having to watch a movie about the evils of the Mormons, and the Jehovah witness. We were taught that they were cults trying to brainwash us. We were told to have nothing to do with them. Looking back on it now, I seem to remember that my Church did a pretty good job of brainwashing us as well. We were always fighting someone. I remember our Peacher printing up flyers for an upcoming election discussing the differences between the candidates. The Republican candidates were decent God fearing men. The Democrats were men of questionable morals and fornicaters. LOL! I shit you not! I had forgotton all about that time in my life, untill I read this thread. I am not saying that all Southern Baptist Churches operate this way, they do not. I have attended other fantastic Southern Baptist Churches that stuck to preaching the Gospel, and helping out the community. It was just that one particular Church that seemed to be at war with the world. No wonder it is closed today.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:08 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
Like any religion, there good, decent Mormons and bottom of the barrel Mormons.

The problem sometimes is being able to differentiate between the two before it's too late. Again, applies to any religion.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:15 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
The Mormons that I've met seemed to be relatively decent people, or at least no worse than any other religious demographic. As such I really can't see Romney* or Huntsman being all that bad if either one were elected President. At least there's no way they could either be anywhere near as disasterous as electing another Texas evangelical into the job.

Speaking of evangelicals, are they all really that clueless as to what the majority of people think are the genuinely important issues? Slandering and denigrating the "cultist" Mormons has to be about the least relevant or serious issue that needs to be addressed. Seriously, what sort of pocket universe do evangelicals live in that they think stupidity like this resonates with anyone at all who lives outside their own circles of inbreds and mental cases? :?

* I wouldn't vote against Romney for being Mormon, but I would definitely vote against him for surrounding himself with the very same neocon foreign policy advisors that authored the Iraq war for George W. Bush. Ummmm, derp?

I agree on the whole Mormons are decent good people, but I would expand that to include most people. People generally are decent and want to do good things, this religious prejudicial BS is almost as nauseating as racial prejudice.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:46 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Just a quick synopsis here: Christians worship God while Mormons want His job. :idea:
Mormon theology allows Mormons to aid in God's work, but they don't seek to replace or duplicate Him. Your statement is like a Mormon saying, "Christians believe God's word while Mormons do God's work." Neither statement is precisely true and both are a bit insulting.

Murray_Smith wrote:
Catholicism is basically paganism with Christian labels
I'm not convinced that's a criticism at all. Christianity with pagan influences isn't any worse than Christianity with patriotic influences (like so many orthodox churches or American protestants) or ethnic influences (like black churches). The fact that many Christians interact with cultures outside of Christianity isn't a bad thing, nor is the fact that Catholicism is the most influenced as a result of being the oldest.

Brenda wrote:
If he would not be elected BECAUSE of his religion, it would be discrimination. At that is illegal.
If he was ineligible to run it would be illegal discrimination. The law doesn't (and shouldn't!) regulate why people vote. It would be too much like thought crime, and I say that as a member of the group that would hypothetically be discriminated against.

GreenTiger wrote:
this religious prejudicial BS is almost as nauseating as racial prejudice.
Agreed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:20 pm
 


Psudo wrote:

Brenda wrote:
If he would not be elected BECAUSE of his religion, it would be discrimination. At that is illegal.
If he was ineligible to run it would be illegal discrimination. The law doesn't (and shouldn't!) regulate why people vote. It would be too much like thought crime, and I say that as a member of the group that would hypothetically be discriminated against.

That was what I meant but didn't know how to say. Thanks! :P


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