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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Stopping Syria (click to view)
Date: February 7, 2012
The diplomatic stalemate over the slaughter in Syria got even staler this week following a joint Russian-Chinese veto of a UN Security Council Resolution that would have called on President Bashir al-Assad to step down. The motion, which was proposed by Morocco, co-sponsored by the League of Arab States, and approved by the Council’s 13 other members, had represented the most significant diplomatic effort to date to address the Syrian government’s multi-month crackdown on its own people — which is soon set to pass a grim one year anniversary.

The strongest Mideast dictator to face an “Arab Spring” style uprising so far, Assad’s regime possesses powerful allies and a degree of strategic importance that was largely absent from earlier deposed tyrannies. In a must-read article in the Wall Street Journal, Professor Fouad Ajami goes so far as to dub the whole mess the “last battle of the Cold War,” in the sense that it pits an old-fashioned Soviet-era client state against the idealistic insecurities of the western powers. Russia has billions of dollars of outstanding arms contracts with Assad, a decrepit but useful naval base on the country’s Mediterranean coast, and a historic friendship that dates back decades.  America has a mushy sense that “something should be done.” As far as interests go, one party has significantly more at stake.

Though no one realistically expects a Russo-American war to break out over Syria, Putin’s intransigence does provide yet more discouragement to anyone hoping the west is gearing up for a rerun of last year’s Libya mission. Experts have warned the country is actually closer to being another Iraq; a nation of furious sectarian division barely held together by a single strongman, with Assad’s weird minority sect of Alawi Islam playing the role of Saddam’s Sunnism. To intervene military would thus almost certainly be an invitation for long-term pain for any occupying power, or, at the very least, merely swap the horrors of dictatorship for the horrors of a religio-ethnic civil war.

Small wonder than that President Obama, despite his increasingly swaggery approach to foreign affairs, has remained mostly cautious in his rhetoric so far, insisting, as usual, that while “all options are on the table,” he’s not seriously considering most of them. Like the Russians, he lamely hopes in public that a “political solution” can be found, even as that most political of institutions, the UN, has just finished proving itself worthless.

In this grim post-American era of ours, the best hope for the Syrians probably remains a form of limited intervention by their Muslim neighbors, who have slowly but surely emerged as some of Assad’s toughest critics. Closely linked with the equally unpopular and ambitious regime in Iran, neither an emboldened nor tottering Syria serves the interests of anyone in the neighborhood, and some observers have suggested an Arab-led intervention, led largely by Turkey to the north and Saudi Arabia to the south, is possible if stability descends much further. It’s already been widely reported that Turkey is covertly running guns to the Syrian rebels (who want more of this sort of thing, frankly) and the Turkish foreign minister is set to visit Washington this week to further strategize.

Should they chose to go all-in, strategic possibilities could include Arab League enforced no-fly zones  or “safety zones” in various parts of Syria, or merely in-and-our maneuvers to liberate civilian refugees (ironically, similar to the services Syria itself once offered during Hezbollah's 2006 war with Israel). Relatively band-aid solutions by the imperial "fix-everything-forever" standards of the west, but certainly better than nothing.

My own instinct is to hope for a local solution. In the aftermath of Somalia, Kuwait, Kosovo, Iraq, etc, we’ve gotten so comfortable assuming that all international interventions — humanitarian or otherwise — have to be planned and led from western capitals the notion that Third World coalitions possess the capacity to address some of their own problems seems positively quaint. Yet if the goal is caution, care, precision, and moderation, it may be a proposal worth dusting off.

The question is whether or not both sides are prepared for the out-of-character roles that would be required in the case of a purely local action: the Arab states as military and strategic leaders taking responsibility for human rights violations in their own backyard, and the west as passive observers unable to call the shots.

Crazy, but it just might work.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:50 pm
 


It sounds like this will be the conflict that will be compared to Iraq to judge it's effectiveness: if things go very well in Syria, people will think even more negatively about Iraq; but if things go very badly in Syria, people will point to it as an example of how Iraq could have gone worse and use it as justification to soften their criticism.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:11 pm
 


Hate to say, but the Russians and the Chinese are right this time. Look at EVERY country in the ME that's had a revolt in recent years. Each one, without exception, is going fundamentalist extremist muslim. Anyone still thinking that these people will vote themselves a Western-style liberal Utopian democracy is deluding themselves.

Syria with Assad is hostile and dangerous.

Syria without him will be suicidally hostile and dangerous. Leave him be.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:11 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Hate to say, but the Russians and the Chinese are right this time. Look at EVERY country in the ME that's had a revolt in recent years. Each one, without exception, is going fundamentalist extremist muslim. Anyone still thinking that these people will vote themselves a Western-style liberal Utopian democracy is deluding themselves.

Syria with Assad is hostile and dangerous.

Syria without him will be suicidally hostile and dangerous. Leave him be.


You're right about that, most can see it, but are to politically correct or afraid to say so.

(Cue Eureka or the guy with sand in his ski's.)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:08 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Hate to say, but the Russians and the Chinese are right this time. Look at EVERY country in the ME that's had a revolt in recent years. Each one, without exception, is going fundamentalist extremist muslim. Anyone still thinking that these people will vote themselves a Western-style liberal Utopian democracy is deluding themselves.

Syria with Assad is hostile and dangerous.

Syria without him will be suicidally hostile and dangerous. Leave him be.


I'm trying to figure out why this should even be a consideration when a dictator is killing vast numbers of his own people. How the people vote after they aren't under this sort of pressure is their own business and their own choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:36 pm
 


Dragon-Dancer wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
Hate to say, but the Russians and the Chinese are right this time. Look at EVERY country in the ME that's had a revolt in recent years. Each one, without exception, is going fundamentalist extremist muslim. Anyone still thinking that these people will vote themselves a Western-style liberal Utopian democracy is deluding themselves.

Syria with Assad is hostile and dangerous.

Syria without him will be suicidally hostile and dangerous. Leave him be.


I'm trying to figure out why this should even be a consideration when a dictator is killing vast numbers of his own people. How the people vote after they aren't under this sort of pressure is their own business and their own choice.


Thousands because of internal problems, or tens if not hundred of thousands when we have to invade because some religious nutjob decides to support a group that detonates a nuke in times square?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:43 pm
 


Quote:
How the people vote after they aren't under this sort of pressure is their own business and their own choice


On a related thread I said I knew someone would post this. My counter to this ...'thinking' is that responsible people don't let intoxicated individuals get behind the wheel for the public good and the good of the intoxicated individual.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:40 pm
 


Dragon-Dancer wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why this should even be a consideration when a dictator is killing vast numbers of his own people. How the people vote after they aren't under this sort of pressure is their own business and their own choice.


Assad more or less keeps the various tribal groups in his country on a leash. Just like Mubarak did in Egypt. And like Khaddafy did in Libya.

Egypt and Libya overthrew their dictators and now there's more bloodshed *after* the revolts have been declared over than there ever was before.

Ditto that in spades for Syria.

Once Assad is gone you can look to a number of things to happen.

1. A number of Syrian nationalist factions (that Assad kept on a leash) will mobilize and invade Lebanon because Syrian nationalists have long claimed Lebanon as rightly theirs.

2. Mass slaughter of Christians just like we're seeing in Egypt.

3. Give it a couple years, maybe less, and the new Syrian regime will demand the repatriation of the Golan Heights and then will try to take them by force. Which will not turn out well.

4. Everyone and his brother will discover a cause worth blowing up other Syrians. Car bombs will help make hapless Arabs the new Syrian national bird.

5. Hezbollah will take advantage of the disarray in the aftermath of the Assad regime to steal wepaons to shoot at Israel - causing yet another Israel-Lebanon war.

Sorry, this is not a good idea to see this guy overthrown.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:00 pm
 


[B-o] Good points! can't rep you for them. But in hindsight, we should also include Hussein in the lesser evils club. Even the 'nice' arab leaders have blood on their hands for trying to maintain order. King hussein of Jordan was behind the so called Black September incident. He was sick and tired of the PLO trying to run his country. We would do well to remember that Jordan is the Palestinian Arab state, with approximately 70% of the people living in Jordan referring to themselves as Palestinian. Jordan actually annexed the West Bank in 1950. The lebanese with israeli assistance finally ended 'Palestinian' interference in their country in a bloody fashion too. Really, if you want to look at in terms of numbers, the Israelis have been a hell of a lot less heavy handed towards the 'Palestinians' than their own fellow arabs have.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:12 pm
 


Unfortunately most of the ME and the Arab world is stuck firmly in an era that we in the West left in 1945. No amount of interfering with Arab leaders killing their own people will alter that.

We are lucky (in the Anglo-Saxon descended world) that we did all this kind of BS to our own people at least a century ago (mostly).

Until the Arab world, amongst others, go through their own social development, start to recognise the rule of law, end endemic corruption and theocratic interference, they will remain socially stuck in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Those of us how have travelled know the futility of expecting our helping hands and good will to change the lot of the Arab peoples.

They will have to sort their own shit out. Really, if they didn’t have so much oil we would give Syria as much attention as Liberia or some other crumbling oil-free African shit-hole.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:17 pm
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
Quote:
How the people vote after they aren't under this sort of pressure is their own business and their own choice


On a related thread I said I knew someone would post this. My counter to this ...'thinking' is that responsible people don't let intoxicated individuals get behind the wheel for the public good and the good of the intoxicated individual.


Similar sentiments if the US elects Santorum, or if we elect Rae, or the Mexicans elect Joaquín Guzmán Loera I guess.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:20 pm
 


EyeBrock wrote:

They will have to sort their own shit out. Really, if they didn’t have so much oil we would give Syria as much attention as Liberia or some other crumbling oil-free African shit-hole.


Agreed. One can still make the argument that the West providing some assistance might have a benefit over Syrians doing it themselves while everyone sits on their hands and does nothing, and the Syrians know they sat on their hands and did nothing.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:25 pm
 


Bismark is oft quoted on this;

"The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier."

I don't think the whole of the Middle East is worth the bones of a single NATO soldier.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:26 pm
 


Yes, good points, Bart. It's also reminiscent of the fall of the Soviet Union. Removing the stabilizing yolk of the dictator led to a lot of violence and instability in the breakaway republics as well as the satellites like Yugoslavia, etc.

But it's really a catch-22, isn't it? I wonder whether whatever problems the Arab spring creates are a necessary stepping stone between the dark ages and the modern world. I agree that the destabilizing effects are troubling, as are fundamentalist religion-dominated governments that seem to be filling the power vacuum. But if these countries ever have a hope of joining the modern Global village as cooperative, stable democracies, the dictators must eventually go. I think about Iran and how that was a lost opportunity when Ahmadinejad cracked down on their protests a few years ago. Had that clown been removed at that time, maybe Iran would have tossed away the fundamentalist shackles. Maybe they'd have learned from having made the same mistake in allowing Ayatollah Khomeini to seize power in 1979. Egypt appears to be making that same mistake right now, but it has to be a necessary step on the road to democracy to get rid of these dictators at some point.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:33 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Yes, good points, Bart. It's also reminiscent of the fall of the Soviet Union. Removing the stabilizing yolk of the dictator led to a lot of violence and instability in the breakaway republics as well as the satellites like Yugoslavia, etc.

But it's really a catch-22, isn't it? I wonder whether whatever problems the Arab spring creates are a necessary stepping stone between the dark ages and the modern world. I agree that the destabilizing effects are troubling, as are fundamentalist religion-dominated governments that seem to be filling the power vacuum. But if these countries ever have a hope of joining the modern Global village as cooperative, stable democracies, the dictators must eventually go. I think about Iran and how that was a lost opportunity when Ahmadinejad cracked down on their protests a few years ago. Had that clown been removed at that time, maybe Iran would have tossed away the fundamentalist shackles. Maybe they'd have learned from having made the same mistake in allowing Ayatollah Khomeini to seize power in 1979. Egypt appears to be making that same mistake right now, but it has to be a necessary step on the road to democracy to get rid of these dictators at some point.


One would think. Every fledgling democracy shits the bed in some way, and in the ME it's complicated by strong fundementalist tendencies. However, going with what you know initially doesn't mean that new ME democracies will stay that way, especially if fundementalist parties get too fundie and begin to smell like the dictators of old. It may mean another bloody Arab spring, but it'll likely result in fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...


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