[Newsbot]

Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Summer loving in Greece (click to view)
Date: May 2, 2010
The long-running comic opera between the governments of Greece and Germany showed signs of coming to a conclusion this weekend.

As we all know, the Greeks have been in enormously dire financial straights as of late, teetering on the brink of full-out bankruptcy due to their massive, massive debt. As a member of the European Union, there was great consensus among the Euro-kings that there should be some sort of bailout, lest the Greek situation wind up massively devaluing the Euro-dollar. As the richest country in Europe, however, the Germans were fairly skeptical of the plan. Since her country would wind up doling out the most cash to prop up Greece, Chancellor Merkel demanded assurances that the Greek government of Prime Minister George Papandreou would implement an aggressive policy of fiscal restraint, lest the same problems arise again somewhere down the line.

Fiscal conservatism and austerity are apparently very controversial ideas in Greece, and Papandreou has taken a lot of heat from voters, especially the public sector unions, for merely toying with some of the German demands. But getting the bailout was ultimately more important, so this week he agreed to bite the bullet and concede to all the preconditions. The size of government will shrink, bureacrats' salaries will be cut, pensions will be capped, and taxes will be raised. In return, the rest of the EU will fork over nearly $160 billion to keep Greece solvent.

Read more on Yahoo! News

[Brenda]

The Euro countries will fork over Euro 80 billion and the IMF 30 billion.
There are only 16 Euro countries in the EU...

[Psudo]

As an alternative to a bailout, Bill Emmott of the Times Online advocates that the EU kick Greece out of the Euro, thus protecting the rest of Europe in the short term and warning other probate nations in to shape up the long term or face similar punitive action.

[martin14]

Psudo wrote:

As an alternative to a bailout, Bill Emmott of the Times Online advocates that the EU kick Greece out of the Euro, thus protecting the rest of Europe in the short term and warning other probate nations in to shape up the long term or face similar punitive action.

Which is exactly what should happen.

The Greeks lied to get the Euro from the outset,

and not only should they be kicked from the Euro, but from the EU as well.


They used to call Slovakia the asshole of Europe, looks like that part
has moved south east a bit.



However, since all governments love to spend taxpayers money without us having
any say in the matter, Greece will be bailed out, more money added to the debt,
and the happy circle jerk of our money will just keep rolling along.

Bet the Latvians are happy today.

[Pseudonym]

I wanna be an EU member nation when I grow up so I can spend and spend and spend.

What a ridiculous world we live in.

[CKASlacker]

Psudo wrote:

As an alternative to a bailout, Bill Emmott of the Times Online advocates that the EU kick Greece out of the Euro, thus protecting the rest of Europe in the short term and warning other probate nations in to shape up the long term or face similar punitive action.

That would be great, but I can't see it happening. Is there a measure in the EU economic constitution whereby a country can get "kicked out" of the Euro?

If it does, I'm sure Turkey at some level wouldn't be able to hide its smirking -- depending on whom you believe, Turkey's membership to the EU is at some level being opposed by Greece.

[BartSimpson]

So if Greece gets kicked out then the EU will kick Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy from the Euro? Because those are the next governments in line with financial problems.

[Psudo]

CKASlacker: Turkey's a stabler economy, too. Sometimes they don't even have a budget deficit.

BartSimpson: It's more likely they'll just threaten the others. It's a little like the USA: once we'd dropped nuclear bombs in wartime, other nations don't doubt that we would again (even though we wouldn't). Thus, nationless military opposition (aka terrorism) becomes our primary military opposition.

[martin14]

CKASlacker wrote:

That would be great, but I can't see it happening. Is there a measure in the EU economic constitution whereby a country can get "kicked out" of the Euro?

As far as I know, there are no provisions for any member to be 'kicked out'
of either the EU or the Euro.

No paragraphs in any treaty that the EU countries have signed deal
either with being kicked or withdrawing voluntarily...


So its not going to happen.



There are disciplinary measures that can be used against individual countries,
but that doesnt happen often.





And Slacker, Turkey joining is opposed by several members of the EU,
not just Greece.

France comes to mind real quick.

[CKASlacker]

martin14 wrote:

And Slacker, Turkey joining is opposed by several members of the EU,
not just Greece.

France comes to mind real quick.

Yeah, I read Wikipedia's article on Turkey's accession to the EU. Among the many issues therein, it mentions Austria and France opposing Turkey's inclusion. Austria for historical reasons (it was a Christian bastion against the Ottoman empire) and France for more "Islamphobic" reasons -- specifically its reluctance to allow even more Muslim immigrants through its borders.

France's opposition strikes me as interesting. Given their recent issues with Islam and the banning of the burqha, perhaps they (prudently) fear further unrest. I'm speculating, but how much of their reluctance is their desire to maintain their unique culture, and the dilution of "Frenchness" by immigrants is worrisome?

I've run into the attitude before, specifically in the UK a few years back when they were debating whether to adopt the Euro. The few I spoke to seemed happy to keep the British pound, saying that the Euro was for the continent and they wanted to keep their "Britishness". I can't help but wonder if that's not at play here as well.

P.S. sorry for derailing the Greek bailout package discussion a bit.

[BartSimpson]

CKASlacker wrote:

I've run into the attitude before, specifically in the UK a few years back when they were debating whether to adopt the Euro. The few I spoke to seemed happy to keep the British pound, saying that the Euro was for the continent and they wanted to keep their "Britishness". I can't help but wonder if that's not at play here as well.

Given the drama attached to the Euro these days it would seem the Brits did the wise thing in not attaching their fortunes to those of Berlin, Paris, Athens, and etc.

[Brenda]

BartSimpson wrote:

CKASlacker wrote:

I've run into the attitude before, specifically in the UK a few years back when they were debating whether to adopt the Euro. The few I spoke to seemed happy to keep the British pound, saying that the Euro was for the continent and they wanted to keep their "Britishness". I can't help but wonder if that's not at play here as well.

Given the drama attached to the Euro these days it would seem the Brits did the wise thing in not attaching their fortunes to those of Berlin, Paris, Athens, and etc.

They did. There are voices in Holland saying they should quit the Euro too. Geert Wilders anyone?
I don't agree with all his ideas, but this is a good one.

[JJ]

martin14 wrote:

As far as I know, there are no provisions for any member to be 'kicked out'
of either the EU or the Euro.

No paragraphs in any treaty that the EU countries have signed deal
either with being kicked or withdrawing voluntarily...

I'm just speculating ignorantly here, but even if there is no explicit "kick-out" clause, I would imagine members countries are expected to either fulfill, or agree to fulfill certain expectations as preconditions of their membership. So, for instance, if there was a Nazi coup in France or something, France would have voided its membership by virtue of reneging on its EU obligation to be democratically-run and peaceful.

I assume that if a country brazenly mismanaged its economic situation to the point of complete non-compliance with all EU economic institutions then it could arguably be said to have reneged on its membership obligations as well. But I'm no fancy EU lawyer.

[martin14]

JJ wrote:

martin14 wrote:

As far as I know, there are no provisions for any member to be 'kicked out'
of either the EU or the Euro.

No paragraphs in any treaty that the EU countries have signed deal
either with being kicked or withdrawing voluntarily...

I'm just speculating ignorantly here, but even if there is no explicit "kick-out" clause, I would imagine members countries are expected to either fulfill, or agree to fulfill certain expectations as preconditions of their membership. So, for instance, if there was a Nazi coup in France or something, France would have voided its membership by virtue of reneging on its EU obligation to be democratically-run and peaceful.

I assume that if a country brazenly mismanaged its economic situation to the point of complete non-compliance with all EU economic institutions then it could arguably be said to have reneged on its membership obligations as well. But I'm no fancy EU lawyer.

Yes, there are disciplinary measures for economic mismanagement.

The Germans and French have not met their targets for a couple of years now,
and no actions taken yet.

Do as I say....

And you can see the Greeks get rewarded for their stupidity with a bailout.

Since there is no formula or procedure for a country to withdraw,
the county's parliament would have to rescind all the different treaties
that they have signed over the years.. thats a lot of work.

Perhaps the plan was to set it up that way, to make it virtually impossible
to leave. Lets not forget one of the basic principles of founding the EU
was to stop all these countries from going to war against each other.

And since there is a little article deeply buried in the treaties which says
that EU law shall be supreme over an individual members law,
even if a Nazi-type government came back to a Euro country,
their actual power to change things is already quite limited.

Sneaky bastards.

[martin14]

BartSimpson wrote:

CKASlacker wrote:

I've run into the attitude before, specifically in the UK a few years back when they were debating whether to adopt the Euro. The few I spoke to seemed happy to keep the British pound, saying that the Euro was for the continent and they wanted to keep their "Britishness". I can't help but wonder if that's not at play here as well.

Given the drama attached to the Euro these days it would seem the Brits did the wise thing in not attaching their fortunes to those of Berlin, Paris, Athens, and etc.

And yet, the Euro remains a very strong currency, imo too strong,
while the pound has been a bit of a yo-yo currency for the last couple of years,
and they have been hurt quite hard by the crisis.

Not so sure staying out has been a good idea economically,
have seen the pound go from 1.4 to 1 against the Euro all the way down to 1 to 1.
The Brits also lose a lot of political clout in the EU by staying out as well.



Slacker, the pro Turkey countries (primarily Germany) look at it from a strictly
economic POV. Turkey has 80 million people, they all need stuff.

The opposing side takes other things into consideration.

Very simply.... It isn't Europe.