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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:47 am
 


What alternative energy could replace fossil fuels at the North American rates?

Take Canada. Canada consumes 520,900,000,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity per year (1).

Solar: A typical solar panel is about 4 feet by 1 foot by 1.5 inches deep and produces about 2,978 kWh per year (2). So Canada would need about 175 million such solar panels at about US$20,000 a piece (according to their weird pricing explanation on the next page). US$3.5 trillion (CA$4.1 trillion) to buy and install 700 million square feet (25 square miles, 65 square kilometers) of panel. Canada's total government budget is about US$155 billion and national GDP is US$1.1 trillion. So 22 times the Canadian government's budget and 3 times Canada's GDP.

But, sure, you'd get a volume discount. Maybe it'll only be twice Canada's GDP.

Conclusion: Solar power cannot replace coal as the primary producer of electricity on a national basis.

Wind: "The Prince Wind Energy Project comprises 126 wind turbines extending over nearly 20,000 acres. With a total installed capacity of 189 megawatts (MW), Prince is now the largest wind farm in Canada." (3) It would take 315 such wind farms to produce Canada's annual electrical consumption, assuming all is constantly running at capacity. So you're looking at 10,000 square miles (25,500 square km) of optimally windy land. That's the size of Macedonia (4, the orange blip).

I wasn't able to find the total cost of the PWEP, but if it's comparable to the UK's proposed London Array (5) (6), you're looking at a £90 billion project to power Canada (US$177 bn, CA$208 bn).

Costs approximately Canada's annual budget, near-ideal conditions needed over an area the size of a small country, and if the weather doesn't behave you're still screwed. Conclusion: wind fuels are looking better, but wind power infrastructure costs (in money, land, and support) are still prohibitive.

I'm not addressing nuclear, hydroelectric, or geothermal power for reasons I think are obvious.

Overall, "Alternative fuels' are currently alternatives only in the small scale use of average people. They are not cultural or national scale alternatives to fossil fuels. Yes, technology will get better. But it's not better yet, and we can't include a schedule of technological advancement in our plans for the future; it's not that predictable. Whether fossil fuels face impending doom or not, we simply do not have an alternative in significant abundance.

And the USA's electricity usage is 7 times Canada's.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:39 pm
 


Nuclear power is the only way of breaking the fossil fuel monopoly in the foreseeable future. Even the environmentalists' darling James Lovelock wrote an op-ed endorsing nuclear.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:44 pm
 


I'm aware that alternative energy hasn't caught up yet, but what are you proposing, exactly? Fossil fuels aren't infinite. They're just not. Conservatism and not believing in geology seem to go hand in hand (see also: global warming,) but there's no way you can seriously look at a situation with liquid made from compressing the skeletonized remains of dinosaurs over millions of years in one corner, and worldwide consumption to the tune of however many kabillion barrels a day in the other, and think this is going to comfortably last us until the end of time. Well, unless you define the end of time as the ensuing nuclear holocaust when we run out and everyone panics.

Several left-wing US politicians have called for a Manhattan Project-like "Okay, guys, we really need to stop and figure this out" session with the most relevant and talented minds and leaders. They were largely dismissed as tree-hugging kooks. Al Gore is now so "controversial" that his name is practically a bad word, like Michael Moore, after a covert lobbying group produced a fake grassroots campaign to make him look like an insane hippie. I'm sorry, but we do need to come up with a renewable answer to peak oil before it's too late.

And yeah, I'm not a tremendous fan of nuclear waste, but it does look to be the closest thing to an answer we have for electricity for the time being. The thought of nuclear cars keeps me up at night, though, so I think we should maybe keep brainstorming there until things like hydrogen or a biodiesel fuel with 0% gasoline in it become feasable.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:17 pm
 


Kjorteo wrote:
The thought of nuclear cars keeps me up at night, though,

You won't be buying a vintage Ford Nucleon?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:09 pm
 


Electric car anyone?

That would be one HUGE way to cut back. I can see a government making electric cars mandatory in 20 years and stopping all production of new cars for 2009 to be electric.

That would be if the oil companies were not a huge supporter financially of most major political parties.

The gas tax isn't something the bigwigs will want to give up easily on. It nets them a LOT of money.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:06 pm
 


It also loses them votes if they try to make it higher or make a new gas tax.

Think about this in an advertisement: CONGRESSPERSON [WHATEVER] APPROVES OF GAS TAX

Taxes + Gas = Killer


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:12 am
 


Kjorteo wrote:
I'm aware that alternative energy hasn't caught up yet, but what are you proposing, exactly? Fossil fuels aren't infinite. They're just not.
I'm not debating that (neither denying nor conceding it). But we don't have an alternative. We just don't. The availability (lack) of oil does not affect the availability (lack) of an alternative.

Nuclear might be enough, which would mean we need a better system of storing/disposing of nuclear waste. (Frankly, if someone could find a practical value for large amounts of nuclear waste, it would solve the whole problem.) If that were the system of choice, cars would be electric and electricity would come from nuclear. I agree that nuclear cars would be horrendously stupid-dangerous.

If right-wingers are crazy for ignoring geology, left-wingers are crazy for ignoring economics. If something costs trillions of dollars, that's another way of saying "It can't be done." Money is a physical metaphor for human labor. There is only so many humans doing so much labor in the world. We simply can't do more than we can do.

Al Gore and others are criticized because of their ignorance or denial of this (apart from the usual amount of criticism any public figure faces). An Inconvenient Truth dismisses the economic aspect as greed for gold weighed against the future of the world. That's just ignorant. The amount of money he wants spent does not exist. He deserves the criticism.

Impending environmental catastrophe does not keep me up at night. Either humans can't produce enough collective effect on the environment to kill us all and we're safe, or they can and won't and we're safe, or they can and will and I can't stop them by agonizing sleeplessly. The best I can do is study the research and determine as best I can what is actually true. It's better to be well-rested when you study.

CanadianJeff wrote:
Electric car anyone?
I was just talking about availability of electricity. Electricity predominantly comes from coal, which is a fossil fuel. It's subject to the same limitations as oil. If fossil fuels are indeed failing suddenly in our lifetimes, we need an alternate method for generating electricity, not a different way of getting it into a car.

(Unless you mean "instead of nuclear cars", but then what exactly would we be "cutting back"?)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:24 am
 


Emissions and from what I understand it doesn't take anywhere NEAR as much coal to fuel an electric car as it does to fuel one with gas.

That and wouldn't it be easier to just change over anyway since our electricity will have to change at one point to another resource?

This is simply cutting back on what we use right in the now while we think of solutions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:54 am
 


CanadianJeff speaks with logic. Given that the two things we know beyond the shadow of a doubt are

1) The current source of the world's energy is finite, and
2) No feasable alternative to the current, finite source has yet been established,

It only makes sense to push for conservation where feasable and attempt to lay the groundwork for the new system when it is realized, and maybe do one or two of those "New Manhattan Project" summits to speed up the development of the alternatives, while there is still time. Fix #2 before #1 dooms us all, you know?

I mean, the consequences of waking up one day and having no oil and nothing else to use would be impactful on everything from trade and commerce to politics and war, and would certainly be more serious than getting a bad grade on an essay because you got drunk and didn't get it done until the day before it was due.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:42 pm
 


Rather than arguing details (like the futility of conservation), I'm going to get to the core of my beliefs.

I'm not convinced fossil fuels are finite in supply (when did prehistoric animals stop dying exactly?), but it doesn't matter. Even if they are, we'll hear about it ahead of time. It takes years for coal or oil to go from building a mine to powering your computer screen. Before our neighborhood gas station receives their last shipment, before the last refinery closes it's doors, before the last oil rig closes shop, before the last oil rig is even built, some guy working at Big Oil will save us all. (Note: This is tongue-in-cheek.)

He'll be out looking for oil deposits and realize there's nowhere left to look. So then he'll go back and look at the iffy, questionable sites. Almost too deep to reach, almost too impure for refining, environmental delicate sites that require extra attention (read "more money"). He'll go there. Sure, the oil that comes out of these sites will be more expensive, but it's still oil. And it's his job to minimize the increase in cost; don't wanna scare away the customers.

Whatever he choses will, of course, be covered by the news with spin projecting global disaster "in 50 years". (They've been saying oil would run out in 50 years for about 50 years now. Ironic that the cut-off date doesn't get closer over time.)

Each time we go to backup supplies like Utah-Colorado's oil shale or ANWR or the California coast, the news will cover it, alternative energies will get a bump, and we'll extend our fossil fuel lifetime a few decades. By the time the secondary sites are dry, we'll have some tertiary sites picked out.

Eventually, the technology won't be available to us to go to additional sites(because that's the given I accepted at the beginning of this post), but it won't matter any longer. The price of energy will have drifted high enough to make alternative fuels sufficiently viable to have afforded us a much comfier safety net than we currently possess.

In short, it won't be "waking up one day and having no oil". It may not even be a calamity. I'm quite skeptical that anyone currently alive will live to see it. I certainly won't lose sleep over it.

(If I sound egotistical and sarcastic, I apologize. I've been watching a lot of House.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:28 pm
 


Psudo wrote:
I'm not convinced fossil fuels are finite in supply (when did prehistoric animals stop dying exactly?)


Probably when they went extinct. Something needs to have lived to have died (unless you listen to certain pro-life arguments, but even then, I'm pretty sure that dinosaurs didn't have frequent enough abortions that saurian fetus oil is all that feasable,) and it stands to reason that there are only so many fossils from which fossil fuels can be derived. Unless, of course, there's a secret colony of space dinosaurs that survived the extinction and now live in Atlantis, but I'm not going to hold out hope for that.

Other than that, it's plausible, I'll give you that.

Is there a way to reach that goal without raiding eco-sensitive sites like ANWR first, though? Seals are cute.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 pm
 


well my other problem with that Psudo is that simply put fossil fuels are not enviromentaly friendly at all.

We need to find a source there that is. Honestly if we keep up global warming I'm sure that no one really knows the costs that could have on not only our health but the eco-system as well.

There is more then just the fact that it's going to run out that we need to change our energy source.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:42 am
 


Kjorteo wrote:
Psudo wrote:
I'm not convinced fossil fuels are finite in supply (when did prehistoric animals stop dying exactly?)
Probably when they went extinct.
Since those prehistoric dinosaur times, there has never been a period of time in which there was no life on Earth. There's always been something dying and leaving biological components in the soil to be compressed into oil. Unless there is some unique and extinct biochemical makeup necessary to create oil (which biodiesel throws into doubt), there's cause to doubt the 'finite oil' theory.

Also, there's some doubt as to whether oil primarily comes from dead animals or not (1). I don't firmly believe either way on the issue of oil's origin. (That source also notes that Russia and Ukraine generally believe oil is non-biological to this day, which might explain some of their enviro-political habits.)

Kjorteo wrote:
Is there a way to reach that goal without raiding eco-sensitive sites like ANWR first, though? Seals are cute.
There are seals at the proposed ANWR drilling site? It's about 5 miles inland (2). I think the safety of wildlife can be ensured within the ~8 km² site.

To answer your question, though, yes, I think ANWR could easily be spared. It's only 10 (3) or 11 (4) billion barrels of oil, which is only enough to fulfill the US demand for oil for about 2 years. Other supplies (the Gulf of Mexico, the California coastline, or oil shale in Colorado and surrounding states) are many times as large. (Oil shale is a big deal to me, since my home state has a massive hoard of it.)

And, of course, if some technological breakthrough makes it possible to build solar panels for $5 per square foot or whatever would make oil commercially obsolete. But that'd be quite the breakthrough.

CanadianJeff wrote:
well my other problem with that Psudo is that simply put fossil fuels are not enviromentaly friendly at all.
Better than nuclear; worse than wind, solar, and hydroelectric. It's interesting that the danger from waste is just about proportional with the energy produced from a given energy source.

CanadianJeff wrote:
Honestly if we keep up global warming I'm sure that no one really knows the costs that could have on not only our health but the eco-system as well.
Haha, given current temperatures across the USA, I could do with some global warming about now. =]

I have similar skepticism about global warming as I have about a pending energy crisis. So far I've been able to avoid that discussion in this thread, but we can address it next, if you'd like.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:02 am
 


sure. I'll have a look around this evening for the reports. Trust me when I say there is tons of scientific data on that one.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:04 pm
 


Alrighty. Let the games begin.

What does the theory of Global Warming claim? Fossil fuel emissions are trapping more solar radiation which increases global temperature which endangers our modern lifestyle, so we need to act to stop this global temperature increase. That's the general idea, right?

This includes many specific assumptions:
1) the temperature of the Earth is increasing.
2) #1 is dangerous to humanity and/or the environment.
3) #1 is caused by human action (especially air pollution from fossil fuels).
4) #1 is reversible by human action (especially gov't regulation of fossil fuel emissions).

#1 is the most important to the claim. Is global temperature rising? Plenty of people seem to think so, but what people think and what is real aren't necessarily related in any way. As evidence of this, Paris Hilton has fans. That's just crazy.

So what scientific measurements of global temperature are out there?

The UN recognizes a study known popularly as the "hockey stick" for it's dramatic up-curve of global temperature since the year 1900 after centuries of gradual cooling (1). However, this same study was later revealed to be biased toward the hokey stick shape it produced and, once the bias was removed, fails to show anything scientifically relevant.
BBC (2) wrote:
their method looks through the data for hockey stick shapes and then promotes those to the dominant pattern [. . .] when they took this into account, the results in the 1998 paper did not achieve statistical significance.
So the study's authors have retracted the study, and neither it nor the UN IPCC's advice on global warming are trustworthy global warming sources.

Other measurements of global temperature, such as those from NASA (3 4) and The University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (5), also show about 1°C increase in global temperature in the past 100 years. This is curious. Did a methodologically flawed study just happen reflect the real situation by coincidence, or are these other climate studies similarly flawed? Until this is explained, I remain skeptical of their analysis.

A global warming skeptic I find entertaining hosts a shorter-term graph of global temperature increase (6) which shows a pretty linear global temperature increase of about 0.12°C over 28 years, or about 0.004°C per year. It only covers global temperatures measured at the time, rejecting all attempts to estimate past global temperature. I'm willing to concede this rate of global warming.

With that concession made, let's move on to #2. How dangerous is global warming? If temperatures get hot enough, there'll have to eventually be some ill effects. There are a lot of claims of potential damage due to global temperature increase, but lots of those (especially those based on the hockey stick study) assume much worse global warming than I've conceded.

Here's a specific claim of possible environmental damage:
The Guardian (7) wrote:
serious, large-scale disruption could occur around 2050, once average global temperature increase exceeds about 2C, leading to abrupt and irreversible changes. These include the melting of a large proportion of the Greenland ice cap (now already under way), the reconfiguration of the global oceanic circulation, the disappearance of the Amazon forest, the emission of methane from permafrost and undersea methane hydrates, and the release of carbon dioxide from soils.
This is a very nice enumeration of specific damage global warming may cause and gives a standard for when it will occur. Actually, it gives two standards: "by 2050" and "once average global temperate increase exceeds about 2C". The obvious problem I see is that these standards conflict.

If they mean 2°C up from the 1905 low point, that would take until 2105 at the 0.01°C warming rate claimed by NASA, and until the year 2405 at the rate I conceded. They seem to be assuming a higher warming rate (1/3rd faster than NASA claims) or they're assuming the warming is accelerating. I'm not sure either assumption is true. And if they mean 2°C up from some temperature other than the lowest global temperature in the past thousand years (by the UN IPCC's questionable reckoning), it can only lengthen the time-frame.

(Actually, being reporters rather than scientists, they probably heard 2050 from a source and accepted it unquestioningly. But my point still stands.)

Despite their time-frame fallacies, the list of dangers they give would be plenty dangerous if triggered. I'm not willing to concede their specifics, but I'll concede that enough temperature increase will cause enough climate change to screw with human civilization. #2 is true, assuming a large enough temperature increase.

So on to #3: Are we causing global warming? Humans aren't the only major source of CO2 (8), but since the industrial revolution we're certainly one of them. Global temperature and human CO2 emissions are both up since the onset of the industrial revolution of the early 1900s. That's an obvious correlation. The 'greenhouse gases' analogy suggests the pollution is causing the warming, but an analogy is not proof. To demonstrate CO2 causes global warming, one needs to either A) set up a near-global scale experiment (which is impossible) or B) make a strong logical case. The latter requires demonstrating that, in addition to the correlation, carbon levels precede temperature change (as cause precedes effect) and demonstrate that the ups and downs of both consistently match. Previous to 1900, do CO2 levels correlate with global temperatures?
CO2 Science.com (9) wrote:
In thus considering the seven greatest temperature transitions of the past half-million years - three glacial terminations and four glacial inceptions - we note that increases and decreases in atmospheric CO2 concentration not only did not precede the changes in air temperature, they followed them, and by hundreds to thousands of years!
Of course, I have no way of knowing if CO2 Science.com is a reliable source, but their claim should be examined. If CO2 and global temperature do not correlate over the past half-million years, we have to consider other causes of global temperature change.

What (apart from billions of humans) is powerful enough to change global temperature? The sun, that 1.4 million km wide nuclear fireball, certainly is. "If the past is any indication of things to come, solar cycles may play a role in future global warming." (10). Also, a global increase in geothermal and tectonic activity could presumably heat the oceans and atmosphere enough to increase global temperature. (I swear I heard about some maverick scientist claiming undersea volcanic activity was contributing to global warming, but I can't find anything on it.)

Human CO2 caused global warming is one of several reasonable explanations, possibly even one of several contributing factors. But the idea that our "cumulative impact on the global environment is posing a mortal threat to the security of every nation that is more deadly than that of any military enemy are ever again likely to confront" (from Al Gore's book Earth in the Balance, p.325) is quite the leap of faith.

And finally, #4. It is possible to reverse global warming? Unless CO2 causes global warming, the answer is 'No.' So the rest of this section requires the assumption that CO2 is the sole or primary cause of global warming. So the question becomes "How much carbon emission can we reasonably expect to stop?"

The ideal is a total end to carbon emissions. Kyoto, it is said, is costing "in the range of $265 to $295 per metric ton of carbon" prevented from entering the atmosphere (11). If that cost applied equally to the 5 billion tons (4.5 billion metric tons) of carbon globally annually emitted (12), we're looking at US$1.2 and $1.3 trillion dollars annually (slightly more than Canada's GDP). Obviously not viable. Even if we pulled it off, would global warming reverse, stop, or merely slow down?

On the more practical side, the actual total cost Kyoto so far is more like $300 billion (13), and it's only attempting to cut a few select nations' carbon output by 5.2%. Kyoto is the largest attempted carbon-cutting program I know of, yet most of it's signatory nations are paying through the nose and failing to reach their quotas. With a 5.2% reduction, it might already be more ambitious than is actually possible to achieve.

This suggests that humanity cannot fight global warming through government actions, not in the current state of the world.

In summary, global warming is real, but more gradual than most believe. We have at least a century, probably centuries, we start seeing tangible damage rather than just subjective warning signs. And there is likely not anything we can do to intentionally change global temperature.

I look forward to your rebuttal. Take your time, I know this post is ridiculously long.


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