[Psudo]

Thanos wrote:

Yes, I know that Ron Paul served in the military.

I meant about "libertarians or Randoids" in general.

[Gunnair]

2Cdo wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

I never fail to be delightfully surprised at the number of Liberals and NDP supporters in the military. Generally a good social cross section that flies in the face of the thought that military folk are naturally right wing - be that socially or economically.

29 years and never heard anyone ADMIT to being an NDP supporter.

They'll announce being gay but voting NDP? Still in the closet!

[Kjorteo]

I should feel wounded that the socially inept Linux nerd has a Gary Johnson sticker, but ... well, I guess I have to concede that Paulites who aren't with Paul for whatever reason and people from New Mexico are basically his audience at this point. Touche, I guess.

Also, I kind of liked the NDP from an outside perspective in the last election, to the point where I'd have probably been willing to vote for them were I actually Canadian, but I'm not, so whatever. I think they bit off more than they could chew with their strategy of basically absorbing the BQ in its entirety to gain seats, though, and am wondering what they could possibly do for the next election with the weird coalition they've got now and without Jack Layton.

[Bruce_E_T]

Kjorteo wrote:

I think they bit off more than they could chew with their strategy of basically absorbing the BQ in its entirety to gain seats, though, and am wondering what they could possibly do for the next election with the weird coalition they've got now and without Jack Layton.

Looks to me that the NDP have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. They have gained seats to the point of forming the official opposition but are really no closer to power than they have ever been.

Seems at this point it is the Conservatives game to lose. The opposition parties appear to be working for them. The NDP picking up BQ supporters, the Liberals with Bob Rae as interim, and possibly actual, leader. (Words cannot describe how repulsive I find this so I wont try)

The Conservatives only have to stay the course and consolidate their support in ON to remain captains of the ship.

[Gunnair]

Kjorteo wrote:

I should feel wounded that the socially inept Linux nerd has a Gary Johnson sticker, but ... well, I guess I have to concede that Paulites who aren't with Paul for whatever reason and people from New Mexico are basically his audience at this point. Touche, I guess.

Also, I kind of liked the NDP from an outside perspective in the last election, to the point where I'd have probably been willing to vote for them were I actually Canadian, but I'm not, so whatever. I think they bit off more than they could chew with their strategy of basically absorbing the BQ in its entirety to gain seats, though, and am wondering what they could possibly do for the next election with the weird coalition they've got now and without Jack Layton.

I think you're right.

I would submit they will not do well in the next election. Yesterday's floor crossing revealed an interesting insite - with Jack gone and a flat leadership race, the good ideas club is in a mess and the desire for a strong "Quebec FIrst" approach by all those neophyte Quebec Dippers is slipping away as reality kicks in.

Bob Rae needed a napkin to dab at his slavering lips, because I wouldn't be surprised at all if she wasn't the last to come over.

[BartSimpson]

JJ wrote:

A 2009 study, for instance, found that Islamist terrorists were three to four times more likely to have backgrounds in engineering than any other field of study.

The study is misapplying the chronology of that relationship. It is not that engineers are prone to extremism, it is that the more brilliant kids in the Wahhabist madrassahs are pointed at engineering. This is for the same reason that Western military academies have aimed selected officers at engineering disciplines.

Up until the 20th century it was typical of military officers to first study engineering and then move on to military studies.

Al Qaeda and the other groups in the ME are just emulating a successful model for creating a military.

[BartSimpson]

Gunnair wrote:

I never fail to be delightfully surprised at the number of Liberals and NDP supporters in the military. Generally a good social cross section that flies in the face of the thought that military folk are naturally right wing - be that socially or economically.

In the rare cases that I came across mushy conservatives* in the Corps I always presented them with the choice of either hugging the enemy or killing the enemy. Amazingly, no one ever took me up on the offer to hug the enemy.

(*The USMC has no liberals or leftists who make it out of boot camp)

[EyeBrock]

Even though the UK military (non-commissioned) is 99% made up of working-class kids from the more depressed areas and the very same areas were and are hotbeds of socialism and left-wing ideology, I rarely met a Labour voter in any areas of the Army, Navy or RAF.

It was the same in the UK cops and I find it very similar in my chosen profession in this fair Dominion.

Political stripes in Canada and the UK are very different to that in the US (in my experience anyway) and I like the centre-right with a hint of Left on social policies.

I’ve always found the Left in Canada and the UK far too steeped in ideology and bereft of realistic outlooks. Most people who have seen the shit kick-off first hand and work in areas that the mainstream can’t even comprehend don’t espouse socialism and far-left ideals. They are far too unrealistic.

On the other side of my working-class coin, I’m no fan of the far-right either. Put that in a Canadian context and I vote for the CPC, but should the Liberals move closer to the centre they could get my vote.

I have to echo Sapper and Bart on this, I’ve not met too many left-wing types in the UK military or the Reg CF.

[CKASlacker]

EyeBrock wrote:

Even though the UK military (non-commissioned) is 99% made up of working-class kids from the more depressed areas and the very same areas were and are hotbeds of socialism and left-wing ideology, I rarely met a Labour voter in any areas of the Army, Navy or RAF.

I seem to recall Michael Moore saying something very similar in regards to the US military being primarily made up from working-class/high unemployment backgrounds (I think he was referring specifically to Flint, MI). Obviously, it comes from Mr. Moore, so it should be taken with a pretty large amount of salt, but it seems to make some sense so I'm inclined to believe it.

I would guess their conservative leanings would be for the same reasons you've already outlined.

[BartSimpson]

CKASlacker wrote:

I seem to recall Michael Moore saying something very similar in regards to the US military being primarily made up from working-class/high unemployment backgrounds (I think he was referring specifically to Flint, MI). Obviously, it comes from Mr. Moore, so it should be taken with a pretty large amount of salt, but it seems to make some sense so I'm inclined to believe it.

I would guess their conservative leanings would be for the same reasons you've already outlined.

Most of the kids who join the military...any volunteer military...generally join up without any set political ideas. What happens in the military is that their experiences help to form their political views.

For instance: When you're an 18 year old kid and you find yourself in Iraq with people shooting at you then you tend not to side with the people at home who are either actively/passively siding with the enemy and you tend not to like the people who are building political careers out of spewing hate at you. Sometimes even making it personal.

You also tend to take a dim view of the party that tells rosy stories about how nice the people are who are trying to kill you and how we should sit down and talk to them. Liberals like to deal in abstracts and vague hopes while the military deals with concrete issues and the absolute certainties of life and death.

The end result is that no matter what they were when they joined, kids tend to become more and more conservative as they stay in the military.

Seriously, you put Mr. Canada in the CF and in eight years he'll be singing the praises of Stephen Harper and mocking the Liberals and the NDP with fervent gusto.

[Murray_Smith]

On that note, when the zombies/robots/aliens/some combination thereof overrun us, liberalism will, for the most part, cease to exist.

[BartSimpson]

Murray_Smith wrote:

On that note, when the zombies/robots/aliens/some combination thereof overrun us, liberalism will, for the most part, cease to exist.

You're right.

I like the example of the movie Zombieland.

The cast is rife with anti-gun leftists and liberals yet besides Bill Murray every last one of them appreciates the practicality of firearms when dealing with an enemy who refuses to negotiate.

Granted, that's a fictional enemy, but the fact remains that when the need is obvious and the apparent choice is life or death then those liberal 'values' show themselves for the stern stuff they're really made of.

Those ideologues who would stand on their liberal principles in such a situation would be dead at the end of the day.

But, hey, they'd have proven their point, right?

[EyeBrock]

BartSimpson wrote:

CKASlacker wrote:

I seem to recall Michael Moore saying something very similar in regards to the US military being primarily made up from working-class/high unemployment backgrounds (I think he was referring specifically to Flint, MI). Obviously, it comes from Mr. Moore, so it should be taken with a pretty large amount of salt, but it seems to make some sense so I'm inclined to believe it.

I would guess their conservative leanings would be for the same reasons you've already outlined.

Most of the kids who join the military...any volunteer military...generally join up without any set political ideas. What happens in the military is that their experiences help to form their political views.

For instance: When you're an 18 year old kid and you find yourself in Iraq with people shooting at you then you tend not to side with the people at home who are either actively/passively siding with the enemy and you tend not to like the people who are building political careers out of spewing hate at you. Sometimes even making it personal.

You also tend to take a dim view of the party that tells rosy stories about how nice the people are who are trying to kill you and how we should sit down and talk to them. Liberals like to deal in abstracts and vague hopes while the military deals with concrete issues and the absolute certainties of life and death.

The end result is that no matter what they were when they joined, kids tend to become more and more conservative as they stay in the military.

Seriously, you put Mr. Canada in the CF and in eight years he'll be singing the praises of Stephen Harper and mocking the Liberals and the NDP with fervent gusto.

Well put Bart. Can't rep you yet! Worth +5.

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

I never fail to be delightfully surprised at the number of Liberals and NDP supporters in the military. Generally a good social cross section that flies in the face of the thought that military folk are naturally right wing - be that socially or economically.

In the rare cases that I came across mushy conservatives* in the Corps I always presented them with the choice of either hugging the enemy or killing the enemy. Amazingly, no one ever took me up on the offer to hug the enemy.

(*The USMC has no liberals or leftists who make it out of boot camp)

Of course some conservatism might be considered mushy to those conservatives tending more towards extremism.

[Teikiatsu]

Newsbot wrote:

The most conventional example is the cliched "Christian conservative," whose identification with the Republican Party is but a mere outgrowth of his existing religious views on abortion, gay rights, school prayer, and so forth. As the party gets more religiously-influenced, in turn, it becomes increasingly common to see GOP politicians frame every partisan debate — even on issues that the Bible is conspicuously silent about, such as raising the debt ceiling — though a black-or-white, heaven-or-hell moral dichotomy, since that's the mental framework they're already most comfortable using in the pews or at the pulpit.

By that logic there are Democrats who have chosen their party and ideology based on their time at church as well. To my experience though, religion is twisted by the Democrats to meet their needs, ie through Social Justice or Liberation Theology and communal salvation. They will try to make a connection there, and begin to argue their position. In retrospect maybe you have a point, it's just that the churches which the Democrats go to are screwed up.

Religion is used by the GOP to justify their social stances, agreed. It's too bad that the outspoken minority in America seem to be given podiums and bullhorn to shout back when their don't have nearly the real numbers and foundation to discredit anything.

But back to your original point, I've never heard a GOP candidate say it was a sin to raise the debt ceiling. I have heard numerous comparisons of the nation's budget to household budgets and comparing debt/deficitrs to credit cards, but that's about it.