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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:09 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
The question of how it's passed or isn't passed is absolutely inconsequential. Nor is the age of consequence.
False. A disease that is spread only through genital contact almost certainly cannot spread as fast as an airborne disease. Thus an airborne disease is often the greater threat. Age is also important to consider. Younger children might not have a strong enough immune system, or the immunity might wear off before it is needed. Do your damn homework.

Lemmy wrote:
Young girls have sex.
That was unnecessary and creepy.

Lemmy wrote:
Jam your head in the sand about that if you want, but I want my 9 year-old daughter inoculated. If you don't want yours protected from this form of cancer, refuse the service.
That's exactly what he wants to be able to do. Why must you be a hater for it?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:09 pm
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
Yes, vaccinating children against something that can result in cancer is such a bad thing.
I never said HPV vaccines are bad in themselves (they're not). I've only said that there's very little public health justification to force those vaccinations on people. You and Herbie are both arguing as if there's no difference between HPV and other vaccinations, when clearly there is.

Lemmy wrote:
Young girls have sex.
Some do (they shouldn't), and if they're going to be sexually active they should vaccinate. But it's not the universal solution for every girl, and the use of force isn't warranted.

(Nor was force used; Perry's program had a parental opt-out available. But many seem to think it should have been forced.)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:19 pm
 


Murray_Smith wrote:
False. A disease that is spread only through genital contact almost certainly cannot spread as fast as an airborne disease. Thus an airborne disease is often the greater threat.

Where did I say otherwise? All I said was that I'd prefer my daughter were inoculated.

Murray_Smith wrote:
Age is also important to consider. Younger children might not have a strong enough immune system, or the immunity might wear off before it is needed. Do your damn homework.

Are you high?

Murray_Smith wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Young girls have sex.
That was unnecessary and creepy.

Ahh, so we'd prefer to live on Fantasy Island, eh? Zee plane, Boss, zee plane!!!

Murray_Smith wrote:
That's exactly what he wants to be able to do. Why must you be a hater for it?

Re-read your last post and mine and ask yourself who's hating. :roll: Of course folks can refuse the injection. That's not an issue, is it?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:18 pm
 


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I don't think Ron Paul is a Tea Partier. Be that as it may, I like most of the Tea Party general principles but despise their reactionary, shallow thinking and refusal to negotiate.

The trouble with the Tea Party is that many of its principles are untenable in practice.
"Every man a king" is a fine sentiment when the Home Owners' Association complains about the old beat-up Ford out in your front yard, or when the evening news touts some new expert who knows just how many vitamins you really needs. Its corollary -- that a body has nobody to blame for his misfortunes but himself -- is a wonderful purgative when we encounter sensational news of welfare cheats. The idea that we are taxed too much already sounds especially good as politicians throw barbs at Social Security, and when we see Congress engage in all sorts of petty antics while policy remains in doubt.
But the truth is, most parents don't know enough to educate their children at home, and the majority that want to do it are worried more about the possibility that public school will turn their children into liberals or libertines rather than make them stupid. The principle that every man should sink or swim on his own, or that charity should be a private thing, ignores the fact that welfare was established precisely because the elderly had proven unable to save enough to keep themselves solvent after their working years ended. And, if we are taxed too much, then the problem is that we have tended to expect too much. Even speaking purely in economic terms, we now know that businesses tend to sit on their money supply when times are tight, whereas governments usually spend. How, then, can we talk about putting money back into our businesses when the objective is to have them pay that money out to new hires? The government is the largest single contractor for goods and services -- the largest single buyer on the market. In his own book, Rick Perry famously fumbles his way through the Great Depression, complaining that times changed for the better only after FDR "unleashed the private sector" to create new jobs. But the mechanism was government contracts for military stores, and the man to blame was Hirohito.

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The federal government should not impose requirements for STD vaccinations. Maybe mandating vaccinations for some air-born diseases would be okay, but it makes more sense to me to allow the choice but restrict access to public buildings (say, schools) to the those who have refused vaccination.

Think of it this way: what is the exchange rate between personal choice and human lives? Obviously it's not worth establishing a totalitarian dictatorship to save one life, nor to allow the extinction of the rest of humanity in order to protect the rights of one person. Somewhere between those ridiculous extremes is the right place to draw the line. Maybe you think that line allows for a this many people to be vaccinated against their will to save that many lives, or maybe not. If you can't prove it, shouldn't you respect the other guy's view, too?


Young people have sex, and in large numbers. I have seen no compelling evidence that vaccination is dangerous or detrimental. The theoretical proposition that an individual loses much fundamental freedom by being compelled to make an appointment with his doctor for a brief, potentially healthful procedure is, on the face of it, absurd.
But I suppose this boils down to how one wishes to think about government. Is the purpose of coming together and making laws to protect the individual's right to do anything, at any time, so long as it does not harm anybody else, or to promote a more productive society? Those two impulses are necessarily at odds.

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No, but they ought to operate as if industrial production was a top priority and that too numerous or too difficult of regulations impede that production.


What leads you to believe that federal regulatory agencies are interested in burdening businesses unnecessarily? Certainly OSHA should not favor efficiency and production above reasonable life safety, however.

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I would support widespread homeschooling with periodic standardized testing at a testing center. I like options, and results matter more to me than method.

The value of public schooling is not only that it ensures the quality of teachers, but also that it provides meaningful social interaction and allows a more efficient delivery of educational resources.

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I don't think there'd be a lot of difference in the decisions they make. If, however, you want to legally challenge a decision they've made, you have a better chance of reversing the decision of an agent of an insurance company than an agent of the United States Federal Government. Of course, neither gives you the kind of control over your own life that actually having money gives you, a situation that becomes less common when people on the margin have to pay for others' health insurance, too.

An individual, acting alone, is unlikely to amass the kind of money that they would require in the event of a catastrophic injury or illness. Hence, insurance. A similar argument can be made with respect to seatbelts: they serve a public good by reducing the likelihood of serious injury or death, and costing society one of its members.

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Bachmann was specifically talking about HPV vaccine. HPV is a sexually transmitted disease. It cannot be passed by sharing a classroom or a mouth-to-mouth kiss or sitting on a dirty toilet seat. It can only be passed by sex or childbirth. Vaccinating girls as young as 9 for it has far less of a public health defense than vaccinations of children for airborne diseases.

Just keep ranting and trolling. Don't worry about reading comprehension.

Bachmann quite clearly believes that the government should not require anybody to get any vaccinations at any time. I suspect that she makes an especially impassioned stand on the issue of STD's, because they could be linked to an uncomfortable assumption about the frequency of sexual activity among young people. I had one co-worker assure me that widespread availability of the STD would only promote greater sexual folly, since unvaccinated young women might be less likely to have sex if they knew they could get cancer.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:59 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Psudo wrote:
Bachmann buys into that thoroughly debunked crap about vaccines causing Autism?


The link between autism or Asperger's and vaccinations has not been thoroughly debunked.

The vaccines themselves are unlikely to be linked to autism or Asperger's but the preservative that some vaccines use may well be an issue.

Thimerosol is supposedly safe to inject into your blood stream if you ask a doctor or a pharmaceuticals executive, but when you look at the no-nonsense MSDS for it you get a different story altogether:

Attachment:
msds.JPG


So here's the way this works in the USA:

Vaccines show up in a sealed box at your locla clinic, the doctor and nurse tell you how safe they are and then they inject it into your kid. If there are any vials of the vaccine that are unused they are then disposed of as a Class One Hazardous Materials. This means that a technician is supposed to show up in a Class A haxmat suit to remove the materials which them have to be disposed of at a great expense due to how dangerous they are.

But it's safe to inject into your kid.

Right.

This is a little close to home for my wife's family. Her brother, Danny, was born in 1956 and in home movies and photographs you see a happy, engaging, and pretty much normal kid smiling, laughing, and playing. At age six he was required to have his vaccinations done so he could go to school. He had a reaction and was sent to the hospital and then sent home. He changed overnight from a happy normal kid to someone who is clearly autistic. He's since been diagnosed as Asperger's.

Anecdotes aside, Thimerosol is made from mercury and the FDA assures everyone that it is perfectly safe to inject into children. Meanwhile, OSHA mandates that Thimerosol be handled as a Class 1 neurotoxin and that people should avoid all contact with it because of its demonstrated toxicity.

Forgive me if I go with OSHA on this one and side with the people who do not want a neurotoxin injected into children whose brains are still developing.


And where are your peer-reviewed studies providing any evidence that these things cause autism or any other developmental issue?

Otherwise, the onus is on you to prove that thimerosol or any other adjuvant causes anything; it's not up to the rest of us to get on an endless treadmill of tirelessly trying to disprove a negative.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:41 am
 


Trenacker wrote:
most parents don't know enough to educate their children at home
That's true for most parents. Some do, and their kids would be better off with one-on-one attention than with scores of kids in one classroom. As a general rule of thumb, public school is enough to get by. That's not the same as homeschooling never having any value to anyone. That's the sort of decision where no single solution fits everyone's problems. One size does not fit all.

All of our disputes seem to be between "usually" and "universally." I emphasize the exceptions, and you emphasize the majority. Other examples:

Trenacker wrote:
I have seen no compelling evidence that vaccination is dangerous or detrimental.
Except in cases of allergic reaction. There is also a very slight change of unknown or rare-but-serious side effects, but typically the risk is so low as to be negligible. Typically, but not always.

Trenacker wrote:
An individual, acting alone, is unlikely to amass the kind of money that they would require in the event of a catastrophic injury or illness. Hence, insurance.
The term for that in the insurance industry is "self-insured." It happens, and often enough that insurance licensing teaches it.

Trenacker wrote:
The value of public schooling is not only that it ensures the quality of teachers, but also that it provides meaningful social interaction and allows a more efficient delivery of educational resources.
True. It also usually carries the disadvantage of being lost in the crowd, treated as number, and being pressured to conform whether it's smart or not. Sometimes the value outweighs the cost, sometimes it doesn't.

These disputes can all be generalized down to one question: Why prescribe the same universal response to diverse circumstances? There are exceptional cases where there is some unique reason specific to that particular case, but generally there is not. That's the greatest concession to generalization I'm willing to give.

(For the record: I plan to vaccinate, insure, and home-school my children. Unless I achieve my dream of operating a school, in which case the kids can go to that school. I think public service, playing at the park, and league sports are better social development activities than public school, so I'll push those. I probably won't ever insure myself.)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:22 am
 


Michelle Bachmann on vaccinations = the dumb person's Jenny McCarthy. But at least Jenny doesn't also want to declare immediate war on Iran and gas all the homos "just because". :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:56 pm
 


Michelle Bachmann is not a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. This is what a lot of people miss about the Tea Partiers: There's a pretty strong Puritan streak in them. They want strong government interference, just so long as it accords with their particular morals.

The US elimination of al-Awlaki proved a litmus test on that. Essentially--it appears--the US arbitrarily decided to kill one of its own citizens. Bachmann supported this. Ron Paul didn't. So you can't, in all honesty, support your government having the right to arbitrarily assassinate its own citizens and at the same time say you're a proponent of small government. It'll be small for those who think like the Tea Party. It'll get mighty big and nasty for everyone else.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:17 pm
 


Bachmann and Co. (actually the entire GOP) remind me of autocrats and theocrats, rather than libertarians. In their world(IMO), there'd be less government telling people how to live their lives, but there'd be more Church interference.


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