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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:50 pm
 


Filibuster Cartoons
Title: Upcoming Republican slogans (click to view)
Date: September 15, 2011
It's a truism of American politics that all presidential candidates pander to the extremes to win a primary, then scramble to the center to win the general election. Democrats never seem more lefitst than when running against other Democrats; Republicans never more right-wing than when battling each other. But this strategic calculation always brings high potential for disaster. If primary-world is too extreme, too accepting or encouraging of radicalism, and too indifferent or hostile to any sort of ideological moderation, then its very possible the candidates will wind up irreversibly tainted by the time the general election rolls around.

Watching Monday's GOP/Tea Party debate on CNN, and the NBC/POLITICO one last Wednesday, it's looking like the Republicans are teetering very much on this point of no return, extremism wise. Though to be fair, blame rests as much with their supporters as anyone else.

During the Wednesday debate, spontaneous cheers broke out at the mere mention — mention — that Texas Governor Rick Perry had executed 234 death-row inmates, a number which, as moderator Brian Williams put it, was "more than any other governor in modern times." Perry seemed quite unfazed, even when Williams proceeded to give the Governor a moment to react to the applause, which had clearly unsettled the host far more than any of the men on stage.

A similarly chilling moment of spontaneity occurred on Monday, during a question for everyone's favorite candidate, Ron Paul. Following a rather gauche theoretical by Wolf Blitzer (reminiscent of the famous "but there's too much blood on the knob!" debate scene from The Simpsons), Dr. Paul was asked if someone who has no health insurance should simply be left to die if he cannot afford the consequences of his own irresponsibility. "YEAH!" shouted several people from the crowd. Paul held firm on his position that it wasn't the government's problem.

And then there was Michelle Bachmann. Once again, she tore a strip off Governor Perry for a decision he made back in 2007, when he approved mandatory anti-cervical cancer vaccinations for Texas schoolchildren. How can you possibly support giving "innocent little girls" "government injections," she said sharply, to much applause. Perry lamely attempted to defend himself, saying that, basically, cancer was bad and he was against it, but then Bachmann jumped back in, bemoaning "all the little girls and parents that didn't have a choice," amid more hooting.

Initially, it seemed Bachmann's objection to this particular injection was born from a particularly vindictive sort of religious moralizing (since cervical cancer can be transmitted sexually, some have argued inoculating against it merely endorses risk-free promiscuity). But no, as she hinted in the debate, and later elaborated in subsequent interviews, it seems Bachmann is a true believer in the larger anti-vaccination pseudoscience movement that argues vaccinations cause brain defects like Autism and — in her words — "mental retardation." There's absolutely no scientific evidence to corroborate this kind of conspiracy theorizing, but it does seem to slot in nicely with the larger hysterically anti-government worldview Bachmann is fond of peddling.

What offended me more than the deliberate callousness of these leading Republicans was their stoic refusal to call each other — or their supporters — out on it. It really highlighted a troubling trend about today's conservatives: while they'll happily leap all over each other at the first sign of ideological impurity or deviation, no one seems much interested in criticizing their competitors (or followers) for their rudeness, meanness, stupidity, or general inappropriateness. It wouldn't have taken much for Ron Paul or Rick Perry to scold the bloodthirsty audience, to say something like "these are important issues, but we should never, ever treat the death of other human beings as something trivial, joyous, or funny."

If anything defines the Tea Party it may be this rejection of poise in favor of crass ideology. It's a movement that was spawned yelling people down in town halls, and now expects every public forum to be similarly "interactive." So long as the right rhetorical lines are being said, it matters not how they are spoken; how undignified, how mean-spirited, how bound-up in hatred and ignorance. The ends will always justify the meanness — assuming anyone still believes petty meanness is something that even needs to be justified.

In this respect, the Tea Party and the modern Republicans who pander to it, are not really about conservatism at all, since there's nothing conservative about embodying the worst traits of the violent, loud, disrespectful, vulgar culture that is already cheapening every aspect of American life, from families to Hollywood to driving. Indeed, one of the main things that historically separated conservatism from blind right-wing demagoguery was a certain degree of restraint, dignity, and tact; a willingness to moderate one's political agenda and language in a way that was not overly disruptive to that which had made our civilization worth conserving in the first place.

And that same dignity, the dignity of someone like John McCain, Bob Dole, or Ronald Reagan, used to be understood as one of the conservative movement's greatest assets, something that could soften the appeal of the right and win over centrists and independents who would otherwise be suspicious of the party's aims and objectives.

Surely conservatives can appreciate that the decline of this tradition is at least one death not worth cheering.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:12 pm
 


I keep hearing about how wonderful moderation is and how it appeals to independants who for some reason will run screaming back to democrats if Republicans use even the slightest bit of coarseness in their dialog. Sorry, I don't buy it. McCain is one of the least popular Republican senators outside of his district and would have lost even more decisively against an unabashed liberal in '08 if it weren't for Palin (who was the only, only reason I voted for him). Bob Dole was a humdrum candidate at best who very predictably lost to Clinton, and Ronald Reagan is a bad example since his legacy is used to play tug-of-war between whoever wants to use it to try to get the GOP to do something they want.

I don't want to vote for someone because I think they're moderate and they can work with the other party. I want to vote for someone who has ideas that I like and will strive to implement them. That's why I voted for Rand Paul and have not been disappointed.


Also, NY 9 was just won by a Republican who did not moderate his tone.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:15 pm
 


JJ, you also forgot what else was said in that Simpson's episode (the debate between Sideshow Bob and Mayor Quimby)...

Larry King: "I'd like to remind viewers that just because this is being televised on Fox there is no need for hoots and catcalls"

Crowd: Woo hoo! Yeah!

:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:15 pm
 


ID_Fox, I don't think it's about moderation vs. radicalism so much as having your facts straight vs. being flat wrong.

When we Republicans have candidates that have flatly awful campaign platforms, we have to be willing to recognize it and refuse to give them our votes.

Bachmann buys into that thoroughly debunked crap about vaccines causing Autism? What's to stop her from believing baseless rumors of a conspiracy among foreign nationals and rounding them up like the Japanese-Americans in WW2? Also, parents could opt-out of Rick Perry's vaccination program; parents had a choice. If she believes such stupid things unquestioningly and can't get her facts straight, she would be a terrible President. It's not because she's right-wing (that's a virtue!), it's because of that vast abyss between her and reality.

Ron Paul supports the gold standard and the abolishment of the Federal Reserve. Find any economist who has served under any Republican President in the past 50 years who thinks that makes any sense. Hint: there isn't one. It would cause massive deflation on a scale that would be unprecedented in history except during the Great Depression. Milton Friedman, the Nobel economist and author of the economic philosophy Reagan championed, is critical of the Federal Reserve's behavior (not its existence) and described how the gold standard contributed to the Great Depression. If your ideal of a Republican President is of the character of Reagan and the ideology of Friedman, Ron Paul's platform is a destructive attack on your ideals.

Maybe it is our, the public's, bad habits of shallow analysis and aimless passion that has driven our party and country to such a poor pool of potential Presidents, but it is quite certain that that is what we have.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:59 pm
 


bootlegga wrote:
JJ, you also forgot what else was said in that Simpson's episode (the debate between Sideshow Bob and Mayor Quimby)...

Larry King: "I'd like to remind viewers that just because this is being televised on Fox there is no need for hoots and catcalls"

Crowd: Woo hoo! Yeah!

:lol:

Krustofsky/Terwilliger 2012

You know you want that bumper sticker.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:45 am
 


Murray_Smith wrote:
bootlegga wrote:
JJ, you also forgot what else was said in that Simpson's episode (the debate between Sideshow Bob and Mayor Quimby)...

Larry King: "I'd like to remind viewers that just because this is being televised on Fox there is no need for hoots and catcalls"

Crowd: Woo hoo! Yeah!

:lol:

Krustofsky/Terwilliger 2012

You know you want that bumper sticker.


Hell yeah! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:40 am
 


Psudo wrote:
Bachmann buys into that thoroughly debunked crap about vaccines causing Autism?


The link between autism or Asperger's and vaccinations has not been thoroughly debunked.

The vaccines themselves are unlikely to be linked to autism or Asperger's but the preservative that some vaccines use may well be an issue.

Thimerosol is supposedly safe to inject into your blood stream if you ask a doctor or a pharmaceuticals executive, but when you look at the no-nonsense MSDS for it you get a different story altogether:

Attachment:
File comment: Thimerosol
msds.JPG
msds.JPG [ 24.94 KiB | Viewed 461 times ]


So here's the way this works in the USA:

Vaccines show up in a sealed box at your locla clinic, the doctor and nurse tell you how safe they are and then they inject it into your kid. If there are any vials of the vaccine that are unused they are then disposed of as a Class One Hazardous Materials. This means that a technician is supposed to show up in a Class A haxmat suit to remove the materials which them have to be disposed of at a great expense due to how dangerous they are.

But it's safe to inject into your kid.

Right.

This is a little close to home for my wife's family. Her brother, Danny, was born in 1956 and in home movies and photographs you see a happy, engaging, and pretty much normal kid smiling, laughing, and playing. At age six he was required to have his vaccinations done so he could go to school. He had a reaction and was sent to the hospital and then sent home. He changed overnight from a happy normal kid to someone who is clearly autistic. He's since been diagnosed as Asperger's.

Anecdotes aside, Thimerosol is made from mercury and the FDA assures everyone that it is perfectly safe to inject into children. Meanwhile, OSHA mandates that Thimerosol be handled as a Class 1 neurotoxin and that people should avoid all contact with it because of its demonstrated toxicity.

Forgive me if I go with OSHA on this one and side with the people who do not want a neurotoxin injected into children whose brains are still developing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:47 am
 


Newsbot wrote:
And that same dignity, the dignity of someone like John McCain, Bob Dole, or Ronald Reagan,


#1, Reagan was not 'dignified' in his stance on Jimmy Carter's efficacy as President nor did he hold back about Carter's policies. The 1980 election was NOT a sit-down chat over afternoon tea.

#2. You cite Bob Dole and McCain's 'dignity' as something the GOP should emulate? **** YOU! These two clowns LOST their elections!! The only lesson in what they did is that if you're a Republican and you want to win the election then DON'T do what Dole and McCain did! :roll:

I am sick to death of liberals telling people like me to support moderates that people like you have no intention of voting for anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:25 pm
 


I agree Bart. Doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I saw this last night:


What struck me was the Ford/Carter election was run on only what was allotted on the tax forms. No big money there at all. The tone was so different then to what politics has become today that the effect is surreal. I can't see the system lasting for very long at this rate, something has to give.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:05 pm
 


Meh...Perry will probably be president come 2013.

He'll bag the Latino vote in droves, that's enough to secure his presidency assuming he gets the middle America vote.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:13 pm
 


CommanderSock wrote:
Meh...Perry will probably be president come 2013.


I was asked on Wednesday who I'd bet on for next November and right now I'd put my money on Obama. I'm a right-wing conservative and I am just not seeing anyone in the field of GOP candidates to get excited about.

Bear in mind, Obama is actually getting single-digit approval ratings in parts of the USA that helped to elect him. Even then I'm still thinking the Republicans are lackluster enough to lose to a guy whose track record manages to make Jimmy Carter look successful.

If Sarah Palin or New Jersy Governor Chris Christie don't get into this race then at this rate I'm saying that next year Obama gets re-elected as President but that the Republicans gain in the House and they take a majority in the Senate.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:43 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Thimerosol is supposedly safe to inject into your blood stream if you ask a doctor or a pharmaceuticals executive, but when you look at the no-nonsense MSDS for it you get a different story altogether:
That would be because doctors look to dosage levels, whereas MSDS isn't specifying any particular dose.

Small doses of poison have different effects than large doses of them. That's why medicines have overdoses, and why taking too little has no effect at all. That's why taking aspirin and drinking alcohol together is a popular method of committing suicide, but a smaller dose of the same thing is a helpful medicine called Nyquil. Taking an even smaller dose has no effect at all.

Your doctor points out how the amount of Thimerosol in one dose of some vaccine is too little to have any ill effects, while MSDS points out that hundreds of doses combined add up to a seriously dangerous toxicity. Thimerosol can be absorbed through the skin, so yeah, you need rubber gloves when handling it.

Even if some vaccine out there is someday linked to Autism and Aspergers, that doesn't mean HPV vaccine specifically ever will be. A 1962 vaccine for a 6-year-old boy doesn't really have any connection to 2010 HPV vaccine offered exclusively to girls of at least 9 years of age. Speaking of HPV vaccine specifically, "35 million doses of the vaccine have been administered, without a single reported case of mental retardation." [soruce] Whoever talked to Bachmann after the debate apparently never informed the proper authorities.

Despite the lack of condemning evidence against Thimerosol, it is being phased out of use in order to prevent the manufactured controversy surrounding it from depriving people of potentially life-saving vaccines. That makes it Much like Silent Spring and the DDT ban, it is not the scientific evidence but the political advocacy that is driving the reaction. It's embarrassing to see that kind of impulsive activism without evidence coming from what used to be the party of waiting for clear evidence of a clear need before mucking with society. There is clear evidence of HPV leading to lethal cancers, but there is not of it's vaccine diminishing mental function. Rick Perry was right to do what he did, and Michele Bachmann is wrong.

BartSimpson wrote:
You cite Bob Dole and McCain's 'dignity' as something the GOP should emulate?
Part of the reason Bob Dole lost was because he suppressed his rather humorous and engaging personality in order to act artificially dignified. I wish I'd been old enough to vote for him.

Part of the reason McCain lost is because he couldn't convince people of his dignity. There was the Republican 2008 blog "Get Drunk And Vote McCain." Maybe my problem is that I don't drink. I couldn't bring myself to vote for him (or Obama). I could vote for most of the Republican candidates this time around, but Michele Bachmann and Ron Paul are not on that list.

BartSimpson wrote:
I am sick to death of liberals telling people like me to support moderates that people like you have no intention of voting for anyway.
JJ's not a liberal. It's true that he has no intention of voting for them, but that's an issue of residency rather than politics. Part of the reason I couldn't bring myself to vote McCain is because he was the attempt to appeal to those voices shouting that "Republicans should moderate," who then switched gears into Flaming Defamation Mode as soon as we did. I empathize with your dissatisfaction, but target it better. Seeking reasonable minds is not the same as moderating ideology. I don't want to support folks from the center, I want to support reasonable right-wingers.

BartSimpson wrote:
I'm a right-wing conservative and I am just not seeing anyone in the field of GOP candidates to get excited about.
Me, too. I could bring myself to vote for Romney or Gingrich or Perry or others, but I'm not enthused about any of them. I want Gingrich's mind wrapped in Romney's morals and Perry's energy.





PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:50 pm
 


I don't get why people want that job.

You can't win. Right off the bat 15% of the people hate you. Tack on another 5-10% if you're not white.

If congress screws the pooch people blame you. If you're wife opens her mouth in public, you get the blame. If a fish shits in the Mississippi you drop 10 points in the opinion polls.

Who likes that sort of abuse? You can't change anything, the government it too big, yet everything is you're fault. I hope a Republican wins the next election. Its way funner to trash a guy then try to defend him.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:29 pm
 


Macguyver: that's only abuse if your self-esteem is based on opinion polls to begin with. Washington/FDR/Reagan types who derive their self-esteem elsewhere are above that nonsense.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:56 pm
 


Scape wrote:
I agree Bart. Doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Carter video]



+1 that was a good piece.


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