[Jarem]

But don't you think that many people look up to European Union as something above their own politicians? And I don't mean "above" just in authority meaning.
I don't know how it is in original EU fifteen, but from perspective of average citizen in 12 "younger" countries, The EU technocrats are well paid, competent, non-corruptable and wiser than their own, country based political class. It's especially true in post-communist countries, but i heard some similar voices from Greece and Portugal.

[Jarem]

But don't you think that many people look up to European Union as something above their own politicians? And I don't mean "above" just in authority meaning.
I don't know how it is in original EU fifteen, but from perspective of average citizen in 12 "younger" countries, The EU technocrats are well paid, competent, non-corruptable and wiser than their own, country based political class. It's especially true in post-communist countries, but i heard some similar voices from Greece and Portugal.

[Prestwick]

I don't think so. In Western Europe, were we've had to put up with the CM/EEC/EC/EU/whatever for far far longer than you have in Poland, the European Commission and the collection of national leaders are usually seen as deaf to the interests of the people of Europe. The European Parliament hardly helps its image either.

There, the level of corruption amongst European Members of Parliament is endemic. European MPs do not have to produce receipts for their lavish expenses. The stuff they do claim as expenses you can't actually find out about unless you book an appointment to check the register of claims yourself at the European Parliament. It is a cynical, cynical gravy train.

There is no link between the European Commission and the citizens of the Union. They are unelected, far from "technocrats", no, they are political appointees. In the United Kingdom, we have a saying: if you want to get rid of a political rival, nominate him to the European Commission!

The Council of Ministers, despite being elected in their member nations, manages to present itself as a Bilderberg-esque enigma, shrouded in thick clouds of secrecy as they decide Europe's future for us.

The European Union will remain aloof and deaf to the complaints of its citizens unless:

1) It clamps down on corruption in the European Parliament.
2) Makes the European Commission electable, either directly or indirectly from being drawn from the European Parliament.
3) The Council of Ministers cede more power to the European Parliament.

[Quantum_Wizard]

Prestwick wrote:

The European Union may have been founded on the Treaty of Rome with ammendments through the Maastrict and Nice treaties but it is more likened to a Supra-national body. It differs therefore to treaty based organisations like NATO or partnerships founded through international treaties like NAFTA.

Well okay, you have a point there. But my main point was that the EU can't transfer more power to itself (with or without the Treaty of Lisbon), as karasoth seemed to believe.

[Prestwick]

Yes, the only way it can do that is if national governments agree to surrender veto in policy areas, or if they agree to cede power to centralised positions like the proposed EU Foreign Minister role.

[Jarem]

I want only to add one thing:
I didn't mean members of European Parliament. They are elected in their countries, from the same political class as local politicians, so they usually bear same stigmats.

[karasoth]

Quantum_Wizard wrote:

Prestwick wrote:

The European Union may have been founded on the Treaty of Rome with ammendments through the Maastrict and Nice treaties but it is more likened to a Supra-national body. It differs therefore to treaty based organisations like NATO or partnerships founded through international treaties like NAFTA.

Well okay, you have a point there. But my main point was that the EU can't transfer more power to itself (with or without the Treaty of Lisbon), as karasoth seemed to believe.

Actually there is a clause in the Treaty of Lisbon which says that the European Commission Can transfer more authority to itself. The Treaty had it passed would give the Commission powers to grant authority to the eu without treaty

[Quantum_Wizard]

karasoth wrote:

Actually there is a clause in the Treaty of Lisbon which says that the European Commission Can transfer more authority to itself. The Treaty had it passed would give the Commission powers to grant authority to the eu without treaty

Actually, there isn't. Or can you quote such a clause? I read through the Treaty and didn't see anything like that. Where have you heard such a ludicrous claim?

[hellifiknow]

Why not turn out the ministers responsible?

To me, unfortunately, this looks impossible. Laborite/leftist politics are generally driven by social welfare redistributionism, always popular among the poor/lower middle class, and identity politics, wildly popular among minorities and largely unassailable by non-minorities. These same politicians realize that more people in their union means a greater amount of favor for welfare and identity politics policies. More integration means, inevitably, more mixing of peoples. Thus, they gain a large measure of job security: you're not annexing a bunch of Switzerlands, but rather a bunch of impoverished ex-communist countries with a long history of government jobs. When that government loses the death squad tactics those jobs look pretty nice.