[Kory Yamashita]

Actually Samuel, if you had read MY post, you would notice that I quoted you. And if you read that quote, it puts the rest of my post in context. But just for you, I'll remind you of what that quote was: <br /> <br />[Quote By= Samuel]I am saying that since 1995, sovereigntists have introduced and signed a model agreement with Natives, something Canada and most other nations that have Indegenous Peoples don't have.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />See that part about "something Canada and most other nations that have Indegenous Peoples don't have"? Can that not be paraphrased "Quebec has signed the best First Nations treaty in Canada"??? Well, I gave a counter-example (the Nisga'a treaty) that in at least one circumstance, proves that there are "model agreements with Natives" in Canada outside of Quebec. <br /> <br />And that is why I called your bragging about your Paix des Braves agreement "high and mighty" and "unresearched". Basically, because you didn't research your claim that the ROC doesn't have model agreements with Natives. And your parading the Paix des Braves agreement around without researching your claims about it IS "high and mighty". <br /> <br />And I have every right to come down on you. Natives in Quebec are, in some cases, better off than Natives in the ROC. And in some cases, they're worse off. And many governments are working to improve the situation for Natives (although they're moving painfully slowly in most cases). But what I take offense to is your claiming that Quebec is leading the ROC when in fact it seems like we're progressing at about the same pace, at least where ground-breaking treatise are concerned. Heck, I'd argue that the Nisga'a treaty is much more comprehensive than the Cree agreement, but I'm not really familiar with the historical background of the Cree, so I'm not really sure...

[Dino]

I always hear Duceppe talking about how natives are better off in Quebec then the ROC. He also has to look at population. In Quebec there are 7.4 million people and 67,000 natives. In Saskatchewan there are under 1 million people and 130,000 natives. <br /> <br />I think the entire country can do a better job at making living conditions on reserves much better but for someone like Duceppe to say aboriginals are better off in Quebec then the ROC is wrong. If Quebec had the percentage of natives like western Canada people in Quebec might begin to realise there provincial government is no better then the western ones.

[samuel]

Kory, you were nasty and judgemental towards me in your post. Yes do read my quote for what it says. Then read the House of Commons snippet where it quotes a Native leader telling the United Nations: <br /> <br /><i>"Canada has not demonstrated the same interest as far as nation to nation discourse is concerned" <br /> <br />"Ted Moses, Grand Chief of the Cree, and Quebec Premier Bernard Landry will be signing an historic agreement, one which demonstrates Quebec's pioneering role"</i> <br /> <br />Before, I was not expressing "high & mighty pride" towards this agreement, but I'm starting to feel darn proud about it now. <br /> <br />Why do you jump all over me, but when federalists keep abusing the Native issue to trump sovereigntists in discussions, you remain silent? I have stopped counting how many times dino has introduced Natives in Québec sovereignty discussions, but she's federalist so it's excusable isn't it? <br /> <br />Why don't you go read my second post in this thread, it expresses my disgust at federalists that continuously bring up Natives to serve their purpose, not the other way around!

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] but I'm starting to feel darn proud about it now. <br />[/QUOTE] <br />Before gloating over this, more due diligence is needed. <br /> <br />http://www.turtleisland.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2384 <br />I see a Cree Chief posting but no discussion on it. Am suspicious. This forum has censored disfranchised first nations people before. <br /> <br />http://www.souverainete.info/forum/read.php?f=11&i=2231&t=2231 <br />Some nuances within a Quebec sovereignty forum (in French). See Eric Chatelain.

[Kory Yamashita]

Samuel, sorry for the harsh words. <br /> <br />However, I do maintain that you, and possibly the Native leaders you are quoting, are quite uninformed. Look up the Nisga'a Treaty (you can find it at the Nisga'a Lisims government site http://www.nisgaalisims.ca/home.html). <br /> <br />This is a groundbreaking treaty. It gives the Nisga'a Lisims Government huge powers in self-governance. It's more than just an economic partnership. Read up on it. <br /> <br />As to why I don't respond to federalists bringing up the issue of First Nations in Quebec: Since First Nations have many outstanding land claims (here anyways, and I assume it's similar in Quebec), they have a sort of veto when it comes to separation. That is, it's still legally their land, so they get the ultimate say in separation. What it means is that if the rest of Quebec (ROQ) decides to separate and the First Nations refuse, then all land claims issues have to be resolved prior to separation. Right? Only in the case where both the First Nations and the ROQ consent could it even be said that Quebec supports separation. <br /> <br />So maybe the Cree agreement WILL change the minds of many First Nations. I don't really know. But don't toss out propaganda about Quebec having the best First Nations agreements in Canada when it simply isn't true.

[HarryKnuckles]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] It's time for separatists and federalists to shut up about whose right and whose wrong and just help out these proud and tough people. If sovereigntists and federalists can't even agree on humane treatment of a nation and its people, I am frankly sickened, and maybe neither Canada nor Quebec should exist as a nation if both continue on this disgusting path of self-delusion and self-glorification. No one can claim they are doing the best thing for Aboriginals until all Aboriginals enjoy the same living conditions as the rest of us. SO as I said before, until this happens, just shut up and work through it together; it's called cooperation, and you might remember it from kindergarten.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Agreed!!

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] No one can claim they are doing the best thing for Aboriginals until all Aboriginals enjoy the same living conditions as the rest of us. SO as I said before, until this happens, just shut up and work through it together; it's called cooperation, and you might remember it from kindergarten.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I am not an aboriginal but if I was, I would disagree with this statement. <br /> Who is to say aboriginals want the same living conditions as the rest of US ? They may want something altogether different than how WE live. Are we ready to allow them a pick of THEIR choice of living conditions or must we make them like US ?<br /> Making them like US...isn't that assimilation ? We could ask Francophones outside Québec about their experiences with assimilation. They have first hand knowledge of it.

[Marcarc]

I'm at the point where I don't even talk about first nations here. How many actual regularly go to first nations websites or subscribe to their papers? Most people don't even know how to frame the issues. <br /> <br /> BC has shown that it is as low brow as the rest of the country with it's latest 'referendum', and the idea that Quebec is groundbreaking, well, watch the documentary "kahnasatake:270 of rebellion". One of the reasons that the natives "surrendered" (got pummeled while leaving, take your pick" is because the Quebec police were replacing the army. The army, as the documentary shows, was no friend, but that the natives were even more afraid of Quebec police shows you just how far the province has to go. Since natives land are dealt with municipally, and native reserves are governed federally, it seriously limits the provincial authority to do much. As any native will tell you, nice words from whitey have been spoken before....while the tanks rolled in.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] I'm at the point where I don't even talk about first nations here. How many actual regularly go to first nations websites or subscribe to their papers? Most people don't even know how to frame the issues. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> I have recently suggested that Vive incorporates an RSS feed from a progressive First Nation media recently. It did not happen (yet). An RSS feed might be useful in pulling out the majority out of its comfort zones. This First Nation leader once told me that patience is the worst tasting medecine. It will come.