[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />Given the amount of homelessness and poverty in most, or all, major Canadian cities today, one has to ask exactly how, if we can't resolve 'our' own problems, we'll be able to do so for some First Nations. [/QUOTE] <br />I personally think that we can learn a huge amount from First Nations people if we are ready to listen to them this time around. We need to swallow our pride and admit some mistakes. The Innus are obviously no longer in a position to help us at this point. Who will be next?

[Marcarc]

I tend to disagree on most of those points. I think anyone who has ever done any volunteer work in a city, or, bless them, ever been homeless themselves knows all too well that Canada's "welfare state" has long been dismantled. Do a little research on any scandinavian country (Finland, Sweden, Iceland) and you'll see how successful a welfare state can be. Canada is, as Homer Simpson noted, "America Junior". Even if one homeless person died in a year it would cause for concern, but in Toronto it is usually over a hundred. That, of course, doesn't even include the massive numbers of working poor and subsistent earners. <br /> While there is virtually no native who, when asked, would recommend more government involvement, there are few who would say no to money. It's quite simple, we know who the natives are, we know where they live, feed them. Watch the documentary "Is the Crown at war with us". In Burnt Church 200 natives used their supreme court given right to earn a moderate income fishing only to see it illegally blocked by our government. Most of the people there live in abject poverty. They are 'paid' basically a welfare allowance while their land earns companies billions, and the government bureaucracy employs and enriches thousands of white people who make about ten times what the natives have. <br /> However, I shouldn't have misled. Not only should a cheque be cut for a large amount-large enough for them to rebuild their communities, but native self government should be given any band whose members vote for it, and the corporations whose mines and mills polluted their land should be made to clean up their messes. Again, it is easy enough for our government to set this up-of course they won't, this is all hypothetical, however, it is right.

[samuel]

That's right gaulois, unfortunately the Innu are the lowest common denominator concerning social needs right now. We're talking about problems such as gasoline abuse, addiction and intoxification, rampant insest, sexual abuse, basic hygiene, basic nutritional information, basic education and the list goeas on and on. <br /> <br />No cheque will solve this considering the emergency at hand. All I can see is other Natives getting involved with them or perhaps the United Nations but I'm not sure about their effectiveness in a case like this.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois]I personally think that we can learn a huge amount from First Nations people if we are ready to listen to them this time around. We need to swallow our pride and admit some mistakes. The Innus are obviously no longer in a position to help us at this point. Who will be next?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Not necessarily, I think as Canadian Sovereigntists we can look towards the Innu as an inspiration and as a cautionary tale. I mean, we, like the Innu, will never allow our land and our people to be taken over, but we, unlike the Innu, must also make sure that the wellbeing of our people come first.

[Marcarc]

Again, a little media coverage is a dangerous thing. Go to innu.ca and read. Innu are facing considerable problems which we have created, but by gaining back their own culture now they are getting back on track by setting up co-ops and basically trying to 'undo' our damage. We are, of course, already 'throwing money at the problem', in fact billions every year. My point is that that money doesn't get to them but maintains a massive bureaucracy-one which we support with our taxes, and which we prolong when we don't demand our government do something about it. You'll note that many reserves are remote, well, Sudbury is pretty remote, so is Winnipeg, Timmins, etc., yet here you find plenty of white people with nice homes, cars, every kind of food imaginable, and more importantly, industry. It's not like innu sit around and blow thousands on gas cans and incest magazines. It takes significant amounts of money to set up a resource based industry-this is something our government hasn't even mastered which is why every resource extraction industry in Canada is propped up by taxpayers. This is, no doubt, yet another reason the government wants natives to fail, if they show a viable resource industry that actually enriches people instead of investors and CEO's the rest of Canada would be copying it (if they have brains to). <br /> As far as the 'problems' there is no doubt that we have inflicted large scale depression related problems, not suprising when we have denied them a future, access to their land, and impoverished them. Keep in mind, that we are in no position to moralize. Six out of ten teenagers will at least try cocaine or hashish or heroin, while pot use among them is even higher while alcohol among young people is now at epidemic proportions. While I haven't checked the stats on incest, I know that 1 in 4 women will be at least sexually assaulted by the time their 18, that doesn't even include the college years, where it is far worse. Domestic violence in OUR society kills more people than drinking and driving or any other non-health related malady. Again, we are fellow patients with the innu, we shouldn't be doctoring them. If you do some research you'll see extensive work being done by natives themselves in dealing with these problems, in many cases our society has been attempting to copy their success.

[Marcarc]

I just wanted to mention a story I had heard growing up, as it is one of those 'white urban tales' which dot our society. When I was young it was announced that for some reason the native people on a local reservation were given 10,000 dollars for some reason. After that came the 'stories' that they had all run out and bought ATV's and driven them into the river. Obviously, this shows that they can't be trusted with money, it shows carelessness and recklessness. It also wasn't true. It was during my young years when I was always hanging around the local bike shops wishing I had money for a motorcycle and I asked why their stock wasn't changing if so many natives had purchased ATV's. He said they hadn't, he hadn't sold an ATV in months, and it turned out that neither had any other shop. I did some more research for my school paper and the police knew nothing about it, while town employees weren't worried about ATV's leaking gas or needing to be removed. <br /> What is curious about this story is that as I've moved around the country I have heard variations of the story practically everywhere I"ve lived. So if you're one of those people who buys that story-do some research first and don't just rely on the word of a buddy. I'm not saying it never happens, I have no doubt that teens of our culture have done the same stupid thing-lord knows I've done dumber. My point is that it's one of those stories that is passed around by our nature as oppressors to be a morality tale about the 'childlike' nature of natives we 'need' our guidance.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] This is, no doubt, yet another reason the government wants natives to fail, if they show a viable resource industry that actually enriches people instead of investors and CEO's the rest of Canada would be copying it (if they have brains to). <br />[/QUOTE] <br />This was quite a powerful argument. I am not sure if the practice is done consciously or inconsciously. Something I have noticed south of the border is to put the most incompetent people in charge of their government bureaucracies (because they really want them to fail) so that the private sector can keep doing its business and further cut back these bureaucracies. The FCC is a very good example of this. Bureaucracies are often a necessary evil when regulation is required (e.g. environment) but they must be kept under a very tight leash. The practice obvious south of the border likely occurs north of the border under political cronies appointment.

[Marcarc]

Gaulois, I would suggest that this practise is pretty endemic to Canada, even moreso than the states. Per capita we have a far higher level of bureaucracy than the states, of course it is primarily at the provincial and federal level. You'll note that Switzerland, Sweden, etc., are all 'sovereign' federal nations yet by and large they are far more decentralized than Canada. While they collect taxes at the federal level, practically all implementation is done at the regional level. I've been doing research for a book and documentary on direct democracy, one of the sections has to deal with what is specifically wrong with our system of government. This has been a real eye-opener and by the time I was half way through I swear I was close to depression. Pick any federal department and read through all the texts, websites, and articles, both in favour of, and critical of these departments. For me it's been like a religious conversion-everything I thought I knew about canada has been turned upside down. There are very many techniques that have been utilized over the years, and these are very conscious decisions that are made. This is why you are seeing this 'open contempt by elites' accelerating the pace of annexation, it is because people are waking up and learning what is really going on, and looking for better options than corporate governance. <br /> As far as innu and natives go, it should be recognized that our specific 'reservation model' was the model utilized decades ago in South Africa to set up their apartheid regime.

[gaulois]

Sometimes I wonder if the complacency or apathy can be explained by the fact that Canadians have never tried to access their services and public infrastructures. Or if they have tried, their experience has been so painful that they were never going to try again. I have had to access these over the last two years and my experience has been most painful. I do think that they would be benefit from improved "Customer metrics" practices (&results based performance incentives) encountered in the private sector. I can only imagine how the service would translate for our most vulnerables ones, such as the Innus.

[Calumny]

Sorry, Samuel. I realize that as you said 'our cities have shelters, food banks, soup kitchens, health care clinics ect. that even the homeless can tend to basic needs' (worked at a shelter years ago). What I was trying to get at was that we have been unable to confront the circumstances that give rise to the need for some of these, and in fact have lived through times in which these circumstances have substantially increased. <br /> <br />As Marcarc indicated, the infrastructure required to maintain food banks, shelters etc. has become increasingly strained and inadequate to the task in most, or all, Canadian cities. <br /> <br />In terms of having something to learn from First Nations, we all have something we can learn from the other, both as individuals and cultures. <br /> <br />We should also be re-learning something about ourselves. The pre-Christian, pre-Roman influenced ancestors shared by most western nations had beliefs very similar to those of many First Nations cultures re: respect towards 'Mother Earth', etc. These are often presented as 'primitive' beliefs we left behind in the process of becoming 'civilized'. What tends to be overlooked is that the path taken by western civilization, e.g., Christian 'deity annointed masters - as opposed to parts of an interconnected and interdependent whole - of the earth' and primarily Roman virtues/values was merely one of many that could be chosen. Given what seems the destination we're reaching, we should be rethinking that path. <br /> <br />Another thing we need to recognize is that, as Marcarc has indicated, the situation with the Innu and various reservation throughout the nation, and with the 'relationship' of First Nations with the 'white man' is for the most part a microcosm of what has occurred in our own societies for hundreds of years, e.g., all of the self-destructive behaviour exhibited by natives living in essentially hopeless circumstances is present in society at large, although the extent of the hopelessness or percentage of society affected by it is not as generally as great, or at least as obvious to those not desirous of seeing it, within non-native communities. Where the circumstances of a non-native community become hopeless, the inhabitants generally have greater options/opportunities available in terms of mobility to other communities in which they can obtain employment and 'fit in'. Based on past experience, I'd venture to guess there are many 'non-native' isolated, depressed communities that have the majority of the problems identified for native communities. <br /> <br />In terms of problems inflicted on First Nations by the 'white man', it should be noted that the white man has never had any difficulty doing this to his own, e.g., Highland clearance scenario, either in past history or today. However, there often seems some tacit acceptance of barbaric actions towards others so long as those 'others' are your own. <br /> <br />My view is that every human should have the resources to create a decent, by their definition, life for themselves. The reality seems to be that within our current system this will never occur because all platitudes aside, this just isn't the system's focus. The issues discussed on Vive, and elsewhere, are generally symptoms of overall systemic problems. Each of us is trying to address some or all of what we perceive the systemic problems to be in our own, e.g., DD, Quebec sovereignty, economic/legal/political change, ways. <br /> <br />As gaulois has often indicated, working together and putting our individual egos aside towards the creation system which gives everyone a fair deal and protection of their values, culture, etc. is the way to go. <br /> <br />

[Kory Yamashita]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]And third, as any native will tell you, they do not need, nor desire what we consider 'necessities'. Their cultures are not based on television, video games, etc.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Maybe that's why we have so much trouble recruiting First Nations contributors at Vive... <br /> <br />That aside, I think the obvious solution is one of mentorship. Basically, the Innu (as described in this thread - I haven't had a chance to research yet) are at the same stage of development that other Native bands were at a few years ago. <br /> <br />I'll propose a type of 'solution': <br /> <br />-Canada (specifically Quebec and Labrador) cut the Innu a fair chunk of land and (the nation as a whole) write them a check. <br /> <br />-Find another First Nations band that has recently emerged from such conditions to give them mentorship, or at the very least, hope. The Nisga'a could send some great mentors. They have fought for years and finally won; they can endow the Innu with a wealth of knowledge on how to deal with us white folk.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] <br />Maybe that's why we have so much trouble recruiting First Nations contributors at Vive... <br />[/QUOTE] <br />Don't agree. There are several First Nations Internet forums. These people are often under employed and do have Internet connectivity. We have had a few visitors in the past but for some reason they did not stick around. Our First Nations forum started after that. Janis is of course our key First Nations contributor and does it from south of the border on issues that may not apply as well here. I note finally that we have had very few articles dealing with First Nations issues and not a whole lot of interest on them. Could situation be comparable to The Francophonie/Bilingualism/Multiculturalism topic area (minus the Quebec separation bickering stuff): somewhat of a yawner for people interested in Canadian Sovereignty: the microcosm again?