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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:46 pm
 


Here is my attempt at defining francophonie "culture", after ~25 years hors-Québec (and having been brainwashed by what the Net opens up). As a matter of fact, this definition would apply to any culture, whether Maoris, First Nations, anglo-Québécois, etc... I have also added some personal political rambling to my definition. <br /> <br />Culture is definitely far more than "speaking" the language, listening to Radio-Canada or attend cultural staged events (whether subsidized or not), like a play or a movie. It involves IMHO regularly reading and writing on current matters in that language something that hors-Québec francos gradually lose. It also involves a common set of published references that we have grown up on and can refer to as we communicate among each others. It involves a "trusted network" among who we will share these references when trying to describe and solve certain current matters, for instance. So if the trusted network is no longer maintained 'cause we are so scattered and often very integrated to anglo life, we then become disconnected. The "trusted network" also collapses when it is artificially subsidized and creates this problem of the "two solitudes" within that network. A similar "trusted network" between francophones in Quebec and hors-Quebec collapses when they are no longer willing to share their common references, often for reasons of demography or numbers. The trusted network of "canadian culture" also collapses when members are no longer willing to share their common references and spent most time bickering over who did what to who and look forward feeding on the next spark. Many politicians make a full career of this here and elsewhere in order to cater to often a high percentage of population (in times of economic turmoil)! <br /> <br />The solution of ghetto'izing and living in a pretend world seems out of place. The solution of integrating with the lot while maintaining its culture has challenges that have yet to be resolved. Can the Internet help maintain the sharing of these common references? Can people stop looking at tits for tats (rf. recent Eastern Europe, North Ireland, Middle East, Rwanda, etc...)? Many people on this planet hopes that Canada can solve this problem. I think Quebec will have exactly the same problems that Canada is trying to solve if it becomes politically sovereign. As the engineer type, ghettoizing Quebec out of Canada creates far more problems than it solves and I am therefore most sceptical of this solution. I am sorry to ask, but what specific problem(s) is Quebec trying to solve anyway by separating??? Sharing the answer on the Vive le Canada trusted network would be a positive step. <br />



LeCanardHasBeen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:43 pm
 


I agree with Michou that culture is defined by a set of common values.

Internationally, Canadians rejoice about our moral stands on human rights, acceptance, and tolerance. And yet, it is Quebec that leads the way. It is in Quebec that the largest anti-war rallies in Canada occurred last year. And it is Quebec that didn't elect a single Conservative MP. In fact, they elected a huge majority of socialist MPs. And who pioneered the affordable childcare program? You guessed it!

So really when the Quebecois talk about seperation, I always feel like they're doing it because they're fed up with the rest of Canada. We always claim to be so righteous, and yet it is particularly Quebec that pushes the issues that we are so proud of. The citizens of Quebec seem willing to tirelessly fight to improve their lives while the rest of Canada generally seems complacent.

Maybe I generalized too much, but I do believe this is an issue. I wonder if the voter turnout numbers support this in any way...



Kory Yamashita

"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:29 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] I agree with Michou that culture is defined by a set of common values. <br /> <br />Internationally, Canadians rejoice about our moral stands on human rights, acceptance, and tolerance. And yet, it is Quebec that leads the way. It is in Quebec that the largest anti-war rallies in Canada occurred last year. And it is Quebec that didn't elect a single Conservative MP. In fact, they elected a huge majority of socialist MPs. And who pioneered the affordable childcare program? You guessed it! <br /> <br />So really when the Quebecois talk about seperation, I always feel like they're doing it because they're fed up with the rest of Canada. We always claim to be so righteous, and yet it is particularly Quebec that pushes the issues that we are so proud of. The citizens of Quebec seem willing to tirelessly fight to improve their lives while the rest of Canada generally seems complacent. <br /> <br />Maybe I generalized too much, but I do believe this is an issue. I wonder if the voter turnout numbers support this in any way...[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I wish I'd written what Kory wrote. But then again maybe not. Some would have said I'm bragging. :-) <br /> <br />Thanks also to Gaulois for his thoughts about culture. Very enlightening to all of us. <br /> <br />Culture is about shared values but for it to prosper and survive, it needs a dream and Martin Luther King spoke of it better than anybody else. <br />Independance for Québec is not a dream I have. Independance is merely one of the tool Québec is looking for in order to have the society it wants for itself. Would that society be better than Canada's ? No it wouldn't but it would be our own. Societies are not good or bad. They work or they don't and the appraisal of what works or not in a society will always remain subjective like the people who live in them. <br /> <br />I wouldn't say Québecers are fed up with Canada as much as just plain tired of pulling at it in order to get what they want. Québec's reputation of being a constant whiner probably stems from there. <br />It is not Québecers wish to dictate to the ROC what it chooses for itself but by not being given the power to choose for ourselves and in many aspects that touches our lives, then fighting those who do have it is the only option we have. This can be said though of the Québec men and women who have fought those battles, they did so honorably and in a democratic fashion. <br /> <br />But those shared democratic values we have are presently at risk and in grave danger. The winds of changes are blowing and they are blowing from the south. They bring complacency, convenience, quick gratification, greed and little democracy. Nobody in North America is safe from them. <br />Lower voter turnouts were the same in Québec as anywhere else in the ROC and mostly with our younger generation of voters. This is where the adult work begins, with our young people. We must educate them in the ways of democracy. We all have rights but never at the expense of our duties. One without the other is either tyranny or slavery. <br />Bring them together and you have found yourself some solid ground on which to build a prosperous and strong community in which your culture can live and prosper.



« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d´être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:13 pm
 


This thread (and the other Quebec and/or Francophonie threads) are taking interesting twists and turns. Thank you kindly for keeping my original threads alive but there is nothing wrong in kickstarting new threads while letting old ones die if people are not interested in discussing its subject matter or composing around the original beat. I must say that following this thread (and others) is quite difficult and has little to do with francophonie hors-quebec. It is like a jamming session where the beat keeps changing. <br /> <br />Or perhaps thread did carry on from the original beat but I no longer recognize it. Let's see: could we for instance discuss the concept of a collective identity of francophone groups hors-Quebec without constantly making references to Quebec collective identity. And vice-versa can an anglo live in Quebec, have own collective identity and yet not be constantly defined by the ROC anglo identity? The two solitudes issue result IMHO from a poor collective identity of a group in relation to a larger demographics group. I think this problem is solvable. Just let this thread die if this makes no sense.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:21 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= michou] [QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] I agree with Michou that culture is defined by a set of common values. <br /> <br />Internationally, Canadians rejoice about our moral stands on human rights, acceptance, and tolerance. And yet, it is Quebec that leads the way. It is in Quebec that the largest anti-war rallies in Canada occurred last year. And it is Quebec that didn't elect a single Conservative MP. In fact, they elected a huge majority of socialist MPs. And who pioneered the affordable childcare program? You guessed it! <br /> <br />So really when the Quebecois talk about seperation, I always feel like they're doing it because they're fed up with the rest of Canada. We always claim to be so righteous, and yet it is particularly Quebec that pushes the issues that we are so proud of. The citizens of Quebec seem willing to tirelessly fight to improve their lives while the rest of Canada generally seems complacent. <br /> <br />Maybe I generalized too much, but I do believe this is an issue. I wonder if the voter turnout numbers support this in any way...[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I wish I'd written what Kory wrote. But then again maybe not. Some would have said I'm bragging. :-) <br /> <br />Thanks also to Gaulois for his thoughts about culture. Very enlightening to all of us. <br /> <br />Culture is about shared values but for it to prosper and survive, it needs a dream and Martin Luther King spoke of it better than anybody else. <br />Independance for Québec is not a dream I have. Independance is merely one of the tool Québec is looking for in order to have the society it wants for itself. Would that society be better than Canada's ? No it wouldn't but it would be our own. Societies are not good or bad. They work or they don't and the appraisal of what works or not in a society will always remain subjective like the people who live in them. <br /> <br />I wouldn't say Québecers are fed up with Canada as much as just plain tired of pulling at it in order to get what they want. Québec's reputation of being a constant whiner probably stems from there. <br />It is not Québecers wish to dictate to the ROC what it chooses for itself but by not being given the power to choose for ourselves and in many aspects that touches our lives, then fighting those who do have it is the only option we have. This can be said though of the Québec men and women who have fought those battles, they did so honorably and in a democratic fashion. <br /> <br />But those shared democratic values we have are presently at risk and in grave danger. The winds of changes are blowing and they are blowing from the south. They bring complacency, convenience, quick gratification, greed and little democracy. Nobody in North America is safe from them. <br />Lower voter turnouts were the same in Québec as anywhere else in the ROC and mostly with our younger generation of voters. This is where the adult work begins, with our young people. We must educate them in the ways of democracy. We all have rights but never at the expense of our duties. One without the other is either tyranny or slavery. <br />Bring them together and you have found yourself some solid ground on which to build a prosperous and strong community in which your culture can live and prosper.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I also agree Kory made some good points...however, do you have any mental health issues that could be preventing you from undertanding the facts? Quebec gets billions more in equalization payments from the rest of Canada than they pay in taxes themselves. They get junkets, jobs, everything, but it still isn't enough. Obviously, the Liberals HAVE taken the pride and nationalism out of being a Canadian, so that matters, but separatism has nothing to do with having to "pulll at Canada" to get what you want. <br /> <br />Your buddy Duceppe may want decentralization, (which is a rejection of the greatest federation in the world) but let me tell you something: if Quebec got more power than the excessive power it already has, or if it even separated, what is Quebec going to do economically, which is the key? Wh*ore themselves more to the United States than they already do now? Plunder more of Quebec's forests for cheap pulp and bulk exports, intead of industry? Sell off more bulk water, and throw away more precious hydroelectricity to New York State while Toronto has another blackout? Not allow the east coast to send power through Quebec territory? They already don't. <br /> <br />Oh yeah, I forgot, the California porn industry is now in Quebec, because apparently French accents are "Cute." So there's another way Quebec is prostituting itself. Talk all you want about "Culture," but Quebec's economy is crap, and the separatists are to blame. <br /> <br />



"True nations are united by blood and soil, language, literature, history, faith, tradition and memory". -

-Patrick J. Buchanan


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:53 am
 


Now that our embassadors of separatism have left us, perhaps this thread can go back to its original subject matter: "do you think that francophonie hors-Québec is strong and healthy?" If not, what problems do you observe? What (or perhaps where) are the brighter areas? <br /> <br />For instance, are there noteworthy business people, artists, writers, politicians, thinkers that are francophones hors-Québec? Are the francophone media dynamic, well attended generating interest beyond their border? Or does francophonie hors-Québec still heavily depend on subsidies and is generally flat if not declining? <br /> <br />Same question could be asked for First Nations? Or anglophonie in Québec.



LeCanardHasBeen
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