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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:05 am
 


Welcome Amiral!<br /> I've notice how you are refering to Canada as another country well I would like to begin with me telling you that I'm against Quebec separation!(I'm from Saskatchewan)You may call it sovereignty but really it's not.Quebec has never been a country and francophones are not a colonized people.It's very easy for someone like you to call Quebec a country when it is still a province because you have no idea what it will be like to stand on your own two feet.<br /> <br /> I don't want to be rude but really Quebec separation is so irrational. I always write about it on this site in frustration because it's not that I ever actually believe Quebec will be a country it's the fact the issue is still on going for decades. If quebecers wanted to separate it would have been done in the 1970's. I just feel as though this issue is so ongoing and I wish we actually had a federal government that would open up the constitution and get Quebec in so this could simply end.<br /> <br /> I hope you and your fellow Quebecers don't blame english Canada from keeping quebec out because if you know your history it was a french Canadian who did that and another french Canadian who has been so tough on Quebec!<br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:10 am
 


I"m not going to stay with this thread long, since most of these comments are pretty repetitious, as are mine. I'd just like to remind the poster from Saskatchewan that one can refer to one's own culture as a country if one wishes. The irish always talked about 'their own country', as did the scottish. Nothing is constant, and even were Quebec officials to sign into a constitution that does not prevent future separation. If a people want to separate they will, no piece of paper will force them. Likewise, conditions change, which is why this is still an open question. <br /> <br /> English people can of course get upset, not understand, get sick of the situation, etc., however, they simply have no power, so chastizing separatists, to my mind simply 'feeds the flame'. Telling somebody it's their own fault, or they should be grateful, and such arguments don't work on people whether they are separatists or not. In fact I'm always surprised by comments on this topic simply because whenever a separatist happens along, which isn't often, the criticisms of the movement begin immediately. These are people who, unlike us, have the right to vote for separation, who WILL vote for separation perhaps partly depending on what they think of english canada. Yet there is little focus on sympathizing, on actually 'trying to change the person's mind'. No doubt in some cases it's fruitless, but who knows who might be reading. <br /> <br /> Even though this website is a testament to it, there is virtually never any comments on how disgusted canadians are with their own federal government. Perhaps its a regional thing, however, if I was from Saskatchewan I'd be seriously pissed that our federal government of the last twenty years is dismantling every gain made, particularly on the strengths of Saskatchewan, of the previous fifty years. In particular it is complicity in such programs that have just about emptied most of the prairies and signed over what used to be farmers rights to monsanto and dupont-and pays the corporations for it!<br /> <br /> And that's not even getting into the problems that maritimers have, and westerners have. So I think we should try to be a little more understanding to what seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable response to the effects of globalization (ie, if one level of government sells you out, then form another)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:14 am
 


Bienvenue à notre amiral. Un peu de compagnie franco, cela fait du bien. J'espère que l'on peut éviter les "batailles rangées" et faire les constats rapides du "agree to disagree". J'en ai fait beaucoup moi-même. Les réponses de Marcarc et de dino illustrent bien ce à quoi tu peux t'attendre. A+



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:28 pm
 


If Quebec signs into the constitution then the issue of separation is over. Why do you think Lucien Bouchard and Duceppe in '92 campaigned to make sure the charlotte town accord didn't pass. Because if it did then there dream of Quebec being a country would have ended.<br /> <br /> Once a constitution is signed it's a legal document there for you can't go back on ratifying it.<br /> <br /> Marcarc,want to find me a place in the world were a country has separated once they signed into a constitution. You won't be able too because it's never happened!<br /> <br /> Over 60% of the Quebec population would prefer a constitutional deal if they got what they wanted and were happy to remain in Canada.Don't you think that would end the aspirations of the separatist since they would know they wouldn't even get over 50% of the vote.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:08 pm
 


Premièrement, bienvenue amiral, content de voir un nouveau membre intégré la famille.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= dino] If Quebec signs into the constitution then the issue of separation is over. <br /> Once a constitution is signed it's a legal document there for you can't go back on ratifying it.<br /> <br /> Over 60% of the Quebec population would prefer a constitutional deal if they got what they wanted and were happy to remain in Canada.Don't you think that would end the aspirations of the separatist since they would know they wouldn't even get over 50% of the vote.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> No offense intended but...<br /> I don't think that Quebecers would ever have what they want with the actual constitution, so I guess that we can forget about getting willingly in it, yet and for a while ( about 30 decades ). Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a separatist, but I grow bored to hear other peoples constantly babling about what Quebecers "can or can't" do... I think that the mouvement souverainiste comes mostly from the fact that the west is constantly denying that there's still flaws in the constitution, and if you think you can fit in it and be happy with it, go ahead, but as for us we're going to decide for ourselves, thank you. <br /> <br /> After all, the constitution has been designed for english canada, not for canada. And there's a huge difference, about 9,000,000 peoples...



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:47 pm
 


The west is not denying that there are flaws in the constitution. Do you even know who wrote the constitution. It was a french Canadian who had zero support in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C yet somehow it was designed for english Canada. Last time I checked in 1982 72 of 75 the MP's from Quebec in Ottawa were liberal and 70 of them supported the constitution and 60% of Quebecers supported the constitution so this idea that Mr. Trudeau brought in the Canadian constitution without the will of Quebecers is false.<br /> <br /> The prime ministers who have been toughest on Quebec have been Quebecers. I find it odd how it gets put as if this has to do with english Canada when it really doesn't.<br /> <br /> Damien since your from Quebec what keeps you from being a separatist?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:30 pm
 


<br /> <br /> <br /> Bienvenue à bord Amiral !<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]The prime ministers who have been toughest on Quebec have been Quebecers. I find it odd how it gets put as if this has to do with english Canada when it really doesn't.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Good, now you admit that Trudeau is a traitor of our nation.



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:50 pm
 


No I don't think Trudeau is traitor of Quebec because he had people's support during the time he brought in the constitution and that's a fact.<br /> <br /> Fleur-du-lys were do you personally stand when it comes to Quebec's place in Canada do you believe it should be a country or are you a quebecer who believes the constitution should be changed and that you would be fine with that?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:51 pm
 


You was not talking about Trudeau when you said the PM who have been toughest on Quebec have been Quebecers ? Do you think what Trudeau did was good for Quebec ?<br /> <br /> <br /> I think it should be a country. I can agree with the constitution if it give us autonomous power but we should still have the right to make a referendum on sovereignty, that might prevent civil war.



"Des deux côtés de la rive les regards se rivent la tension est vive, on est sur le qui-vive en attendant que l'inévitable arrive" Loco Locass


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:55 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= dino] The prime ministers who have been toughest on Quebec have been Quebecers. I find it odd how it gets put as if this has to do with english Canada when it really doesn't.<br /> <br /> Damien since your from Quebec what keeps you from being a separatist?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It will be even more odd for you to learn that the prime ministers who have been toughest on Quebec that were Quebecers are considered here as "traitors". Did you know that Trudeau during the WW2 was hiding himself in north Ontario like a coward while my Grand-Father has been to Diepe as " chair à Canons " for the english and americans ? Did you know that Martin's and Chretien's companies would have to pay additionnal taxes if Quebec was "souverain" ? These ministers would sell there own mother if it would likely be profitable, so don't think they care about Québec or Canada, they only care about themselves and $$$. So, I hope you'll have a better comprehension on why do there's no Quebecers who care about the fact that they were bashing Québec at Otawa, what can you expect from cowards like these ? <br /> <br />



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:58 pm
 


Yeah I was talking about Trudeau being tough on Quebec. As in he wasn't even flexible with Quebec. <br /> <br /> Do I think what Trudeau did for Quebec was good? I can't even figure out what he did for Quebec. That's why I think the constitution should be changed. I don't understand how a Quebecer wouldn't even give Quebec distinct society!!<br /> <br /> If you can agree with the a new revised constitution you should focus on simply getting more powers and money back from Ottawa remember if the constitution is to be changed everyone in Canada should be satisfied with it. If changing the constitution means and end to separation your going to find alot of support in english Canada.<br /> Like I said before I'm from Saskatchewan and a big NDP supporter provincial and federal. I don't believe Quebec will ever become a country I think the thing that I wish is that the constitution would be change so that this country can move forward<br /> <br /> . I believe Quebecers are proud to be Canadian just that they would be even prouder if Quebec actually had a place in the constitution.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:50 pm
 


You can't revise the constitution to simply not allow the referendum, Quebec will never agree with this. Why you want this so much if you are sure the yes will never win on the next referendum ?<br /> <br /> The Quebecers are not very proud to be canadian, even if they are federalists. We ( including federalists ) almost never say we are french canadians, we are quebecois. We don't celebrate Canada day. Why should we be proud of a new constitution who only don't allow us to do a referendum ?



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:09 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys] You can't revise the constitution to simply not allow the referendum, Quebec will never agree with this. Why you want this so much if you are sure the yes will never win on the next referendum ?<br /> <br /> The Quebecers are not very proud to be canadian, even if they are federalists. We ( including federalists ) almost never say we are french canadians, we are quebecois. We don't celebrate Canada day. Why should we be proud of a new constitution who only don't allow us to do a referendum ? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> 1. Because a referendum is not democratic. They are too prone to abuse from both sides.<br /> <br /> 2. Because having several no votes and one yes vote is false logic.<br /> <br /> 3. Because the future is up in the air. Quebec is not owed anything. Any federal government with balls would have imposed its will on the provinces a long time ago. They have the legal means of doing so.<br /> <br /> <br /> French Canadians are colonial descendants of the French empire. Informed federalists know that the separatists goal is power and control. They want more power than they currently have, and NO amount of appeasement will prevent this.<br /> <br /> Only when Canada ceases being dominated by the Quebec issue will Canada reach her potential. The province of Quebec has relatively little economic power, and they have been wasting our time for too long.<br />



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:35 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys] You can't revise the constitution to simply not allow the referendum, Quebec will never agree with this. Why you want this so much if you are sure the yes will never win on the next referendum ?<br /> <br /> The Quebecers are not very proud to be canadian, even if they are federalists. We ( including federalists ) almost never say we are french canadians, we are quebecois. We don't celebrate Canada day. Why should we be proud of a new constitution who only don't allow us to do a referendum ? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Well you are French Canadian. Unless you choose to break apart the country and so far hasn't worked.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying you change a constitution to deny people a referendum! I'm saying if the constitution is changed and let's say 70% of Quebecers support that (istead of being irrational and breaking up a country) then how would you be able to win a referendum with 30% of the vote!!! You and probably more people in Quebec who are separatists don't seem to understand the only reason you guys can call a referendum is because you haven't legally ratified the constitution!! Every other province and territory has except Quebec. The day Quebecers choose to ratify the constitution the question on separation is over.<br /> <br /> why do you think Bouchard and Duceppe campaigned so hard to stop charlotte town accord from passing because if it had been ratified there dream of Quebec being a country would have ended.<br /> <br /> In 1998 when the PQ was elected Martin Goldfarb a well know pollster for the media did an interesting poll he asked Quebecers whether they agreed with the following statement:"I am proud to be Canadian." More then 80% said they were proud to be Canadian(50% strongly,33% somewhat)Only 16% of Quebecers stated they were not proud to be Canadian. <br /> <br /> Why do I want a constitutional deal if I don't believe the yes side will ever win? Because whether you believe it or not the issue on Quebec's place in Canada holds this country down SOOO much. Quebecers seem to not really care how it feels for people in english Canada to constantly have the threat of separtion over our heads. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:09 pm
 


I also answered you there before or at the same time you posted <br /> http://www.vivelecanada.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?forum=12&showtopic=7533&mode=&onlytopic=&show=20&page=2<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Quebecers seem to not really care how it feels for people in english Canada to constantly have the threat of separtion over our heads.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Which threat ? Your polls said it, we are not going to win, don't worry with that. <br /> <br /> English canadians seem to not really care how it feels for us when we first speak french and you answer in english. Did you realized that each time someone starts a topic in english, a french speaker will try to answer in english ? It's okay for this time because Amiral said a sentence in english. But look, we are debating in english in "La Francophonie".<br />



"Des deux côtés de la rive les regards se rivent la tension est vive, on est sur le qui-vive en attendant que l'inévitable arrive" Loco Locass


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