Author Topic Options
Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1870
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:19 pm
 


Just about anything can lead to 'anarchy'. Canadians should in fact be proud of the Quebec referendums. Rarely in the world does a section of an empire try to separate so peaceably. <br /> I'd just like to disagree with the above poster who claimed that they are not trying to solve problems. In fact, they are the only ones who are willing to take on the federal government to solve problems. Everybody else sits back and criticizes the feds in coffee shops and wishes we had better emporers. <br /> I'd also like to point out that this website has it's main focus as 'empowering' grassroots organizations. Obviously, that power has to be gained from somewhere, notably the federal government. A 'grassroots' type government, such as in Switzerland would look downright 'anarchic' to Canada but in fact it has existed far longer and more stably that Canada's. I keep hearing this argument that Canada is so 'stable'. Nothing could be further from the truth. We came within a few thousand votes of one province wanting out, we have native land claims which threaten to subtract sovereign land from the country (a good thing in my opinion), and now 'investor treaties' give more rights to an american corporation than a canadian. <br /> Our voter turnout is among the most abyssmal of any democracy, we have among the highest distrust of our governing institutions of any industrial government. The surprising fact is not that the province of Quebec wants out, but that any other province wants to stay in! For all the bellyaching I see Canadians do about separatists, I see little introspection on the fact that, face it people, we've got a lousy system of government. <br /> I can easily see a separatist point of view. How will you feel once we're part of the US (we practically are now) and the majority of americans are complaining 'hey, what's with the northerners wanting to separate?'





PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:34 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] Just outta curiosity how many other federalist parties are there in Quebec besides the PLQ and parti egalite? I know that the Greens are federalists (least I think so), the Bloc Pot might be, but they're not exactly a serious party. The Marxist-Leninists call themselves federalists, but from what I've read both the federal party and their provincial counterparts are just as much seperatist as the Bloc and PQ. <br /> <br />But hey they're Maoists, I don't expect sanity from those types of people! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I already answered you on this. Only the Liberals are federalists. Recently, Francoise David, Option citoyenne, (a leftist party) joined officially the sovereigntist bandwagon. The Greens will certainly vote yes in a referendum, so will the NDP, so will Mario Dumont. As for the Equality party, you're out of date. It was disbanded.





PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:37 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= michou] <br />Ok, fair enough. Here are a few links: <br /> <br />--<a href="http://www.toile.qc.ca/quebec/Societe/Vie_politique/Question_nationale/Souverainete/">La Toile du Québec</a> <br />--<a href="http://agora.qc.ca/liens/kymlicka.html">Quebec: a modern, pluralist, distinct society</a> <br />--<a href="http://lequebecois.org/Default.aspx">Le Québécois</a> (there's even a reference to our "bloodthirsty" ' federal government <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'>... does this ring a bell ?) [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Yes, they are bloodthirsty, and this effects Ontarians much more than Quebecers. Toronto pays Quebec's lunch.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It's the other way around. Quebec pays for Toronto's lavish dinner. <br />


Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1035
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:36 pm
 


self censored



« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d´être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron


Offline

Forum Super Elite

Profile
Posts: 2599
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:15 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= michou] <br />Ok, fair enough. Here are a few links: <br /> <br />--<a href="http://www.toile.qc.ca/quebec/Societe/Vie_politique/Question_nationale/Souverainete/">La Toile du Québec</a> <br />--<a href="http://agora.qc.ca/liens/kymlicka.html">Quebec: a modern, pluralist, distinct society</a> <br />--<a href="http://lequebecois.org/Default.aspx">Le Québécois</a> (there's even a reference to our "bloodthirsty" ' federal government <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'>... does this ring a bell ?) [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Yes, they are bloodthirsty, and this effects Ontarians much more than Quebecers. Toronto pays Quebec's lunch.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It's the other way around. Quebec pays for Toronto's lavish dinner. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Dude, you dont' stop being an idiot by repeating yourself. Toronto generates more wealth than the entire province of Quebec--eat that.



"True nations are united by blood and soil, language, literature, history, faith, tradition and memory". -

-Patrick J. Buchanan


Offline

Forum Super Elite

Profile
Posts: 2599
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:20 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Just about anything can lead to 'anarchy'. Canadians should in fact be proud of the Quebec referendums. Rarely in the world does a section of an empire try to separate so peaceably. <br /> I'd just like to disagree with the above poster who claimed that they are not trying to solve problems. In fact, they are the only ones who are willing to take on the federal government to solve problems. Everybody else sits back and criticizes the feds in coffee shops and wishes we had better emporers. <br /> I'd also like to point out that this website has it's main focus as 'empowering' grassroots organizations. Obviously, that power has to be gained from somewhere, notably the federal government. A 'grassroots' type government, such as in Switzerland would look downright 'anarchic' to Canada but in fact it has existed far longer and more stably that Canada's. I keep hearing this argument that Canada is so 'stable'. Nothing could be further from the truth. We came within a few thousand votes of one province wanting out, we have native land claims which threaten to subtract sovereign land from the country (a good thing in my opinion), and now 'investor treaties' give more rights to an american corporation than a canadian. <br /> Our voter turnout is among the most abyssmal of any democracy, we have among the highest distrust of our governing institutions of any industrial government. The surprising fact is not that the province of Quebec wants out, but that any other province wants to stay in! For all the bellyaching I see Canadians do about separatists, I see little introspection on the fact that, face it people, we've got a lousy system of government. <br /> I can easily see a separatist point of view. How will you feel once we're part of the US (we practically are now) and the majority of americans are complaining 'hey, what's with the northerners wanting to separate?' [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Canada should be proud of the referendums? RIIIGHT. A group of racist pigs trying to pull Quebec out of a country with the one of the highest standards of living --bright move. <br /> <br />Canada is not the British empire anymore, except in symbolism. But of course, repatriating the constitution was not a good idea---RIIIIGHT. Even though most Quebecers agreed with it. <br /> <br />You see the hypocrisy? You claim Canada is an empire--but you disagree with cutting ties with Britain. <br /> <br />If you try and reute this--your brain is really quite small.



"True nations are united by blood and soil, language, literature, history, faith, tradition and memory". -

-Patrick J. Buchanan


Offline

Forum Elite

Profile
Posts: 1035
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:09 am
 


self censored



« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d´être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron





PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:22 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= michou] <br />Ok, fair enough. Here are a few links: <br /> <br />--<a href="http://www.toile.qc.ca/quebec/Societe/Vie_politique/Question_nationale/Souverainete/">La Toile du Québec</a> <br />--<a href="http://agora.qc.ca/liens/kymlicka.html">Quebec: a modern, pluralist, distinct society</a> <br />--<a href="http://lequebecois.org/Default.aspx">Le Québécois</a> (there's even a reference to our "bloodthirsty" ' federal government <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'>... does this ring a bell ?) [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Yes, they are bloodthirsty, and this effects Ontarians much more than Quebecers. Toronto pays Quebec's lunch.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It's the other way around. Quebec pays for Toronto's lavish dinner. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Dude, you dont' stop being an idiot by repeating yourself. Toronto generates more wealth than the entire province of Quebec--eat that.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Deaf, blind, not too bright, but believing the federal propaganda as if it were the Gospel. <br /> <br />Tell me, Perturbed, as we saw from the sponsorship scandal, NO PRICE WAS HIGH ENOUGH TO KEEP QUEBEC IN CANADA. That doesn`t tell you something? <br />


Offline

Junior Member

Profile
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:48 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= michou] <br />Ok, fair enough. Here are a few links: <br /> <br />--<a href="http://www.toile.qc.ca/quebec/Societe/Vie_politique/Question_nationale/Souverainete/">La Toile du Québec</a> <br />--<a href="http://agora.qc.ca/liens/kymlicka.html">Quebec: a modern, pluralist, distinct society</a> <br />--<a href="http://lequebecois.org/Default.aspx">Le Québécois</a> (there's even a reference to our "bloodthirsty" ' federal government <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'>... does this ring a bell ?) [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Yes, they are bloodthirsty, and this effects Ontarians much more than Quebecers. Toronto pays Quebec's lunch.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It's the other way around. Quebec pays for Toronto's lavish dinner. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Dude, you dont' stop being an idiot by repeating yourself. Toronto generates more wealth than the entire province of Quebec--eat that.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Deaf, blind, not too bright, but believing the federal propaganda as if it were the Gospel. <br /> <br />Tell me, Perturbed, as we saw from the sponsorship scandal, NO PRICE WAS HIGH ENOUGH TO KEEP QUEBEC IN CANADA. That doesn`t tell you something? <br /> [/QUOTE]The federal government's response to the referendum and efforts to keep Quebec in Canada have nothing to do with how rich Quebec is. The federal government would've done the same for any other province in the same situation.<BR><BR>It sounds like you are the one who believes government propaganda. In his letter to the press, Alphonso Gagliano said the PQ government, including crown corporation, outspent the federal government by a margin of 5-to-1 when it comes to sponsorships. I know he's not the most reliable person, but he's got some damn good lawyers, so I doubt he would make that up. <BR><BR>The PQ government also spent lots and lots of cash on propaganda; the only difference is that the PQ was trying to sell the people something they had twice rejected. The PQ started this propaganda war; you would have to be really dishonest or, in your words, "Deaf, blind, not too bright" to claim otherwise.





PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:54 am
 


PERTURBED <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Canada should be proud of the referendums? RIIIGHT. A group of racist pigs trying to pull Quebec out of a country with the one of the highest standards of living --bright move. <br /> <br />Canada is not the British empire anymore, except in symbolism. But of course, repatriating the constitution was not a good idea---RIIIIGHT. Even though most Quebecers agreed with it.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Are these the only arguments you have left to defend your point of view? <br /> <br />We`ve talk about the constitution. Thank God Lévesque didn`t sign it. If Quebec had been an English province among a French speaking country, would it have blindly signed it? Now, it is over, we`re going to be a countrhy and you can shove your Constitution where I think. <br /> <br />Symbolism of British empire? Hello, symbolism! A drain on taxpayers, expensive, useless salamaleks, that is what it is. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />





PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:32 pm
 


[QUOTE]The federal government's response to the referendum and efforts to keep Quebec in Canada have nothing to do with how rich Quebec is.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Canada can`t afford to lose Quebec. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]The federal government would've done the same for any other province in the same situation.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Any other province don`t have any interest in leaving because their identity is not in peril. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]It sounds like you are the one who believes government propaganda. In his letter to the press, Alphonso Gagliano said the PQ government, including crown corporation, outspent the federal government by a margin of 5-to-1 when it comes to sponsorships.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You`re not helping yourself if you use Gagliano as a reference. The worst liar, thief, corrupted piece of garbage. He even had its taxes done by a mafiosi accountant before Chrétin hired him. The feds, in 1995, spent how much the amount of the yes side, for that stupid `love rallye`? <br /> <br />[QUOTE]The PQ government also spent lots and lots of cash on propaganda; the only difference is that the PQ was trying to sell the people something they had twice rejected. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />...and it will continue to do so until it is a done deal. <br /> <br />Now what propaganda are you talking about? The PQ, when in power, has every right to to promote its agenda. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]The PQ started this propaganda war; you would have to be really dishonest or, in your words, "Deaf, blind, not too bright" to claim otherwise.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />So speaking for oneself is, according you, a propaganda war? <br /> <br />I know Canada would have preferred Quebec to follow the rules : <br /> <br /><i>Shut up Quebec, we`re draining your resources down the 401 and the St-Lawrence seaway; but we`re collecting your taxes though, to make Ontario prosperous all the while returning you a welfare cheque! Cash your welfare cheque as a good second-class citizen, because you`re not worthy of any investment money.</i> <br /> <br />After Quebec is gone, Canada can set all the rules it wants. <br />


Offline

Forum Junkie
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 516
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:23 pm
 


Delenda dreaming of a seperate Quebec can only actually come in 2008 and that's if the PQ government thinks there ready to call a referendum. There is 3 years for the federal government to find a way to get Quebec into the constitution so right now the federalist side has the upper edge. <br /> <br />Jean Chretien is a french canadian. Why on earth do you think that the federal government is out to ruin Quebec when most of it's MP's are from there. <br /> <br />Was Mr. Trudeaus vision to ruin Quebec when almost half his MP's were from there?


Offline

Vive Moderator


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 5450
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:25 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] <br />Canada can`t afford to lose Quebec. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Let's see . . . <br /> <br />http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html#Quebec <br /> <br />The population of Saskatchewan west is roughly the same as Quebec. Federal transfer payments in October 2004 for Quebec were 13.2 billion dollars, transfer payments to all provinces west of Saskatchewan were 11.2 billion dollars. <br /> <br />From the federal balance sheet: <br /> <br />http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/govt51b.htm <br /> <br />Quebec's revenues are 76.9 billion, while expenses are 80.2 billion. <br /> <br />Quebec is bleeding money, and as a 'family provider', it isn't doing well. <br /> <br />Until Quebec balances it's books, I'd say we'd do better without them. Economically speaking. <br /> <br /> <br />Quebec on it's own, would starve.



Take the Kama Sutra. How many people died from the Kama Sutra as opposed to the Bible? - Frank Zappa


Offline

Junior Member

Profile
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:05 pm
 


If the PQ government has the right to use public money to promote its agenda, doesn't the federal government? I still don't understand why seperatists hate the sponsorship program; you should be proud that it was inspired by the PQ government's own sponsorship activities.<BR><BR>As for this whole idea of the federal government draining money out of Quebec to the benefit of Ontario, here is a comment I posted in another section on this subject:<BR><BR>Delenda, it is ridiculous to say that Ontario has prospered as a result of the federal decisions you mention. Rather, the decisions you mention were made because Ontario already prospered. Would the St-Lawrence Seaway have been made if Ontario wasn't already the industrial centre of Canada? No. Same with the Auto Pact. The reason it is in primarily Ontario is because Ontario is close to the industrial heartland of America(read Detroit in this case) and already produced goods and parts for the industry beforehand. If the American auto industry was based in Vermont, then the Canadian auto industry would be based in Quebec.<BR><BR>Ontario borders 70 million Americans! SEVENTY MILLION AMERICANS!!! That is the source of Ontario's wealth: selling stuff to the Americans. It's not the federal government.





PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:14 pm
 


DINO : <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Delenda dreaming of a seperate Quebec can only actually come in 2008 and that's if the PQ government thinks there ready to call a referendum. There is 3 years for the federal government to find a way to get Quebec into the constitution so right now the federalist side has the upper edge.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />To be more exact, there is 2 years and half left to the next election. True, Patapouf can go five years, but it won't be in his best interests. But Patapouf isn't interested in re-opening the Constitution. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Jean Chretien is a french canadian. Why on earth do you think that the federal government is out to ruin Quebec when most of it's MP's are from there.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />That's what anglos don't understand, Dino. These franco federalist sell-outs will do anything the anglo establishment expects them to. There are the worst kind. Chrétien, Coderre, Pettigrew. I know it sounds weird, but this bunch of parasites are there to make Canada look good, to lull Quebeckers into thinking they are represented. It is false. Quebec is not represented with these clowns. They don't do ANYTHING for Quebec. Were they there for the Petro-Canada sell of shares to defent Desjardins? No. Because they won't lift their little finger for Quebec. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Was Mr. Trudeaus vision to ruin Quebec when almost half his MP's were from there?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />His vision was to ruin the nationalist movement in Quebec. There is not much of Quebec left if you substract the nationalist movement. Might as well say, yes, he was trying to ruin Quebec.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  5 ... 7  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest




All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Vive Le Canada.ca. Powered by © phpBB.