Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 20792
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:12 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Yeah, Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey had great plus/minuses because of their two-way play.


This is 2013. Not 1982. Different game.


If that's the case, then why have only TWO of the last ten Selke winners (Datsyuk in 07-08, Bergeron in 11-12) also led the league in plus/minus the year they won? If plus/minus was such a key factor in determining how good a forward is defensively, then why don't they match up better?

Surely, if it was as key a factor, more than 20% of the winners in the past ten years. Further, not ONE of the last ten Norris Trophy winners led the league in plus/minus.

Not many people in the league think Thomas Vanek (2006-07 plus/minus winner) is a great two-way player - certainly his stats support that he isn't. Every year EXCEPT 2006-07, when he led the Sabres in scoring (and was tied for fifth in goal scoring BTW), his plus/minus has been pretty poor. His best showing is +9, with most of his other years in the minus column.

Or how about Pascal Dupuis, this year's winner. When he played with Atlanta and Minnesota (a pretty good defensive team), he was always a minus player, yet with the high-scoring Penguins, he is now a plus player. Thing that make you go hmmm...

Sorry, but plus/minus isn't all it's cracked up to be and is nothing more than a stat for lazy people - and maybe 'coaches' such as yourself.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:36 am
 


Hyack wrote:
raydan wrote:
Troll. :roll:


I don't know about troll, although all I seem to see in these many threads with Lemmy and OTI stating their opinions is.....

Lemmy wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Maybe it's about time the two of them got a room...... :wink:

Feel free to join in. Bring your own rubber cock.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR

GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23859
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:55 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
Hyack wrote:
raydan wrote:
Troll. :roll:


I don't know about troll, although all I seem to see in these many threads with Lemmy and OTI stating their opinions is.....

Lemmy wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Maybe it's about time the two of them got a room...... :wink:

Feel free to join in. Bring your own rubber cock.


You've officially taken over from me as OTI's evil nemesis. Once he loses the bet, you can tag me back in! :wink:


Offline
Active Member
Active Member
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 350
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:31 pm
 


I hate Grabo, but he has a point. Putting him on the 3rd/4th line and expecting offensive numbers doesn't add up.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:49 pm
 


bootlegga wrote:

Not many people in the league think Thomas Vanek (2006-07 plus/minus winner) is a great two-way player - certainly his stats support that he isn't. Every year EXCEPT 2006-07, when he led the Sabres in scoring (and was tied for fifth in goal scoring BTW), his plus/minus has been pretty poor. His best showing is +9, with most of his other years in the minus column.

Or how about Pascal Dupuis, this year's winner. When he played with Atlanta and Minnesota (a pretty good defensive team), he was always a minus player, yet with the high-scoring Penguins, he is now a plus player. Thing that make you go hmmm...

Sorry, but plus/minus isn't all it's cracked up to be and is nothing more than a stat for lazy people - and maybe 'coaches' such as yourself.


Thank you for proving my point as to why +/- is a key factor in evaluating a forward.

Above, you actually used the stat yourself to judge Thomas Vanek. What other stat supports that he's a poor two way player? :lol:

You also highlighted a great example with Dupuis. Looking at this stats during his time with Atlanta and Minnesota, you'd know that he's not the type of centre who can carry a line offensively and devensively and that he needs a player like Crosby with him.

Just funny to hear you scoff at the stat and then use it to try to backup your point.

+/- is a piece of the puzzle when evaluating a forward. Is it the be-all-end-all? Hell no, but it's something to consider; for sure.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:14 pm
 


Plus minus tells you whether or not you should keep a group of three forwards together or not, little else. And even then you have to consider how much of the pluses and minuses are due to defense or goaltender play. Any sports stat absent observation is pretty meaningless.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 20792
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:23 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
bootlegga wrote:

Not many people in the league think Thomas Vanek (2006-07 plus/minus winner) is a great two-way player - certainly his stats support that he isn't. Every year EXCEPT 2006-07, when he led the Sabres in scoring (and was tied for fifth in goal scoring BTW), his plus/minus has been pretty poor. His best showing is +9, with most of his other years in the minus column.

Or how about Pascal Dupuis, this year's winner. When he played with Atlanta and Minnesota (a pretty good defensive team), he was always a minus player, yet with the high-scoring Penguins, he is now a plus player. Thing that make you go hmmm...

Sorry, but plus/minus isn't all it's cracked up to be and is nothing more than a stat for lazy people - and maybe 'coaches' such as yourself.


Thank you for proving my point as to why +/- is a key factor in evaluating a forward.

Above, you actually used the stat yourself to judge Thomas Vanek. What other stat supports that he's a poor two way player? :lol:

You also highlighted a great example with Dupuis. Looking at this stats during his time with Atlanta and Minnesota, you'd know that he's not the type of centre who can carry a line offensively and devensively and that he needs a player like Crosby with him.

Just funny to hear you scoff at the stat and then use it to try to backup your point.

+/- is a piece of the puzzle when evaluating a forward. Is it the be-all-end-all? Hell no, but it's something to consider; for sure.


The only thing I used it for was to debunk the load of BS you dished on page 2;

OnTheIce wrote:
While plus-minus isn't the be-all-end-all of hockey stats, in today's game with respect to centremen, it's a key factor in judging one's performance in both ends of the rink.


As you can see by both examples, plus/minus ISN'T much of a factor in judging how effective a centre is at defensive ability, otherwise the last ten Plus/Minus Trophy winners would also have been Selke Trophy winners.

In only TWO cases was that true - which pretty much debunks your theory that plus/minus is an effective tool of measuring defensive ability.

FTR, I don't judge players' two-way play like Vanek and Dupuis (or anyone else) by their plus/minus (or any other single stat), but whether or not they were at the very least a finalist for the Selke Trophy.

Guess what, neither one was in the season they led the league in plus/minus. If plus/minus was as big a factor as you make it out to be, then each one should at least have made it as a finalist, don't you think?

That's another nail in the coffin of your 'key factor in judging play at both ends of the rink' theory.

Given that the players with the highest rankings at plus/minus are typically ones on the highest scoring teams (and/or lead their team in scoring), it looks like Lemmy's observation is more accurate than yours.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests



cron
 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.