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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:48 pm
 


Habfanman Habfanman:
I don't know why people are shocked at the state of the leaves, this has been going on for as long as I can remember. Change the names, and this could be a conversation from the 70's', 80's or 90's.

And what's up with Leaf Nation's outrageous claim that the leaves are 'Canada's Team'? I've never seen any evidence to support this, and suspect that the leaves fan base would have been steadily eroded outside of Toronto by the cup runs of Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa and the pathetic state of the leaves themselves.

I suspect that the Habs are the most popular team in Canada. They have a lock on Québec, where there are virtually no leaf fans, and I've met tonnes of Habs fans in every city in every province in which I've lived.


ROTFL

That's funny!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:00 pm
 


It's true! I've never seen any actual numbers to back up the claim, just leaf fans saying "Well we all know that the leaves are Canada's team". Why would Canadians pick the least successful and most embarrassing of the 6 teams as their favourite? It makes no sense!! It just another case of Toronto mistaking it's importance to all who live outside of it's self-obsessed little bubble.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:13 pm
 


Sounds like you need to get out a bit more. I've seen the Leafs play in every Canadian city and a few US cities and the cheer for the Leafs can be just as great for them as it is the home team.......sometimes greater. Come to think of it I haven't seen them play in Montreal but my chum was there a few weeks ago when they played the Leafs. He said the cheers were just as load for the Leaf goals......which he found shocking. People born before 1970 tend to cheer for either the Leafs or Habs. Outside Quebec support for the Habs is there but isn't as strong as the Leafs. Has nothing to do with the lack of success in the last 40 years either.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:24 pm
 


Well, I've only lived in 5 provinces and 3 other countries but I will try to get out a little more!

I'm not saying that there aren't heaps of leaf fans, there are, I'm just challenging the claim that they are 'Canada's Team'. Habs/Leafs games are always packed with fans of both teams. The difference lies in the fact that leaf fans at Habs games usually bus in for a party weekend or are McGill or Concordia students from Ontario. Very few residents of Montréal are leaf fans, I've not met one in a year and a half of living here. In Toronto, most Habs fans live in the GTA or some other Southern Ontario city. I used to be one of them. The thought of a 'party weekend' in Toronto doesn't hold much appeal to anyone living in Montréal. 'Weekend hockey retreat' might be more apt!

I too have been to games in all Canadian cities as well as at least a dozen in the US. Outside of Buffalo and Detroit, and Canadian cities, you don't see a lot of leaf fans (and there are always heaps of Habs fans in those cities as well). I've seen the leafs play in Dallas and St Louis where there have been virtually none. On the other hand, I've met solid contingents of Habs fans in every US city I've been to, and not just Canadians following the team but native Chicagoans, Bostonians and Pittsburghers, for example, who are life-long Habs fans. It's the kind of loyalty that only success can bring and not the kind that's bought by massive media overexposure and monopoly television coverage.

I simply question the claim that the leaves are Canada's team. It doesn't seem to be based on any objective evidence, just the ramblings of Leaf Nation, MLSE and the networks who carry leaf games, all of whom have it their best interest to perpetuate the myth. I've been searching for a concrete source of information on this and I have been unsuccessful. I can only use facebook as an example where there are more Habs fans than leaf fans using the NHL application. This despite the fact that facebook is only now becoming popular among francophones in Québec and that there are only about 450,000 registered users in all of QC and 1,000,000 users in Toronto alone, never mind the rest of Ontario. This leads me to believe that there are an awful lot of Habs fans outside of Québec and not quite as many leaf fans as we've been led to believe.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:54 pm
 


Habfanman Habfanman:
And what's up with Leaf Nation's outrageous claim that the leaves are 'Canada's Team'? I've never seen any evidence to support this, and suspect that the leaves fan base would have been steadily eroded outside of Toronto by the cup runs of Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa and the pathetic state of the leaves themselves.

I suspect that the Habs are the most popular team in Canada. They have a lock on Québec, where there are virtually no leaf fans, and I've met tonnes of Habs fans in every city in every province in which I've lived.


The Habs are the most popular team in Canada? Please. Since when can you go to a vistor's venue and hear Habs fans down out the home team? Which team sells more in merchandise? Which team is a bigger draw for tickets at other team's venues?

You've met tonnes of Habs fans in every city in every province? Really? How many cities in how many provinces have you lived in. In fact, how many people did you actually meet?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:27 pm
 


Habfanman Habfanman:
Well, I've only lived in 5 provinces and 3 other countries but I will try to get out a little more!

I'm not saying that there aren't heaps of leaf fans, there are, I'm just challenging the claim that they are 'Canada's Team'. Habs/Leafs games are always packed with fans of both teams. The difference lies in the fact that leaf fans at Habs games usually bus in for a party weekend or are McGill or Concordia students from Ontario. Very few residents of Montréal are leaf fans, I've not met one in a year and a half of living here. In Toronto, most Habs fans live in the GTA or some other Southern Ontario city. I used to be one of them. The thought of a 'party weekend' in Toronto doesn't hold much appeal to anyone living in Montréal. 'Weekend hockey retreat' might be more apt!

I too have been to games in all Canadian cities as well as at least a dozen in the US. Outside of Buffalo and Detroit, and Canadian cities, you don't see a lot of leaf fans (and there are always heaps of Habs fans in those cities as well). I've seen the leafs play in Dallas and St Louis where there have been virtually none. On the other hand, I've met solid contingents of Habs fans in every US city I've been to, and not just Canadians following the team but native Chicagoans, Bostonians and Pittsburghers, for example, who are life-long Habs fans. It's the kind of loyalty that only success can bring and not the kind that's bought by massive media overexposure and monopoly television coverage.

I simply question the claim that the leaves are Canada's team. It doesn't seem to be based on any objective evidence, just the ramblings of Leaf Nation, MLSE and the networks who carry leaf games, all of whom have it their best interest to perpetuate the myth. I've been searching for a concrete source of information on this and I have been unsuccessful. I can only use facebook as an example where there are more Habs fans than leaf fans using the NHL application. This despite the fact that facebook is only now becoming popular among francophones in Québec and that there are only about 450,000 registered users in all of QC and 1,000,000 users in Toronto alone, never mind the rest of Ontario. This leads me to believe that there are an awful lot of Habs fans outside of Québec and not quite as many leaf fans as we've been led to believe.
Don't know what to tell you then. I've seen the exact opposite to what you've seen.....including your view of southern Ontario. I would agree that in Northern Ontario you'll find a fair share of Hab fans but that's about the heaviest fan support for the Habs I've seen and it's mostly in the predominant French speaking communities. I think you'll find it depends on age as to who someone cheers for. Older (40+) people outside Quebec tend to cheer for the Leafs.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:51 pm
 


$1:
Older (40+) people outside Quebec tend to cheer for the Leafs.


Pfew, I am glad I am not 40+ then :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:56 pm
 


Brenda Brenda:
$1:
Older (40+) people outside Quebec tend to cheer for the Leafs.


Pfew, I am glad I am not 40+ then :lol:


Punk kid.....:lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:24 pm
 


Mustang1 Mustang1:
Habfanman Habfanman:
And what's up with Leaf Nation's outrageous claim that the leaves are 'Canada's Team'? I've never seen any evidence to support this, and suspect that the leaves fan base would have been steadily eroded outside of Toronto by the cup runs of Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa and the pathetic state of the leaves themselves.

I suspect that the Habs are the most popular team in Canada. They have a lock on Québec, where there are virtually no leaf fans, and I've met tonnes of Habs fans in every city in every province in which I've lived.


The Habs are the most popular team in Canada? Please. Since when can you go to a vistor's venue and hear Habs fans down out the home team? Which team sells more in merchandise? Which team is a bigger draw for tickets at other team's venues?

You've met tonnes of Habs fans in every city in every province? Really? How many cities in how many provinces have you lived in. In fact, how many people did you actually meet?


While, "Please", "C'mon", and "Pffft" may be considered great counter-arguments over at Leaf Nation, I was hoping for more concrete proof. While there are heaps of leaf fans in the stands at Buffalo and Detroit games, (they are border towns after all and only a 2-3 drive from Toronto), there are also hordes of Habs fans at their games. It's the same in other Canadian cities, Vancouver and Ottawa in particular.

I'm only interested because I noticed that on facebook, there are more Habs fans than leaf fans, despite the fact that there are 4,000,000 Canadian users outside of Québec (1,000,000 in Toronto alone) and only 450,000 in all of QC. You would think that there would be many more leaf fans considering there are 9 times more people to draw from, if the leafs are in fact Canada's team.

I will gladly concede the point if anybody can furnish the numbers. I've looked around myself but can't find any actual evidence that the attendance, merchandise and popularity numbers are real and not just based on mass, wishful thinking on the part of frustrated fans or some slick marketing plan dreamed up by MLSE. Those guys have hoodwinked enough people in my opinion. I also would rather not fall victim to an urban myth such as the "UN proclaims Toronto most multicultural city in the world" story. I fell for that one, only to find out that there never was any such proclamation.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself why anybody under 40 would choose to be a leaf fan. The other 5 Canadian teams have all either won the Cup or at least made it to the finals in the modern era. What would motivate a person to choose one of the worst teams in professional sports, the only team that has played under .500 and never made the finals since expansion, as their favourite team? I ask myself this, and I can never come up with a logical answer. It just doesn't make any sense

To answer your question, I've lived in Halifax, Montréal, Toronto, Oakville, London, Sarnia, Calgary, Banff, Burnaby, Vancouver, Houston TX, Chattanooga TN, Edinburgh Scotland, Melbourne and Perth Australia. I've met a couple of people along the way including quite a few leaf fans, and I always try to drop a little change into their cups!.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:43 pm
 


$1:
I'm only interested because I noticed that on facebook, there are more Habs fans than leaf fans,


THat is your source? Facebook? You based your argument on Facebook members?

Well, that says enough, doesn't it :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:11 pm
 


THat is your source? Facebook? You based your argument on Facebook members?

I'm not basing my argument on facebook, I'm trying to find the real numbers! I'm hoping that someone can provide them. facebook is by no means a reliable indicator, but you have to ask yourself, with over a million members in Toronto alone, why would there be more Habs fans than leaf fans? Why would people there buck the trend? It just so happens that it's the only source I've been able to find that provides an actual number comparison, unreliable as it surely is. I've googled every combination I can think of and come up empty-handed.

I'm not knocking other teams either. It stands to reason that Montréal and Toronto would have more fans than the other 4 Canadian teams. They've had a 60-70 year head start, larger population base to draw from etc. I was completely behind Calgary (well, not in 86 or 89!!) Edmonton and Ottawa when they made the finals, and I think that Ottawa has an excellent shot at going all the way this year. I just want some proof that the leaves are Canada's team and not a bunch of rhetoric. Send me links, facts, figures and I will gladly concede the point!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:35 pm
 


Why is this so personal? Toronto thinks it is the centre of the universe anyway, so it is logical they will call their team Canada's team, right?

Are there more Habs fan than Leafs fans in Toronto? Who says?

(not that I really care though :lol:)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:03 pm
 


Habfanman Habfanman:

While, "Please", "C'mon", and "Pffft" may be considered great counter-arguments over at Leaf Nation, I was hoping for more concrete proof. While there are heaps of leaf fans in the stands at Buffalo and Detroit games, (they are border towns after all and only a 2-3 drive from Toronto), there are also hordes of Habs fans at their games. It's the same in other Canadian cities, Vancouver and Ottawa in particular.


And that’s your concrete proof? “There are also hordes of Habs fans”? I’m willing to bet there are more Leaf fans at a Sens game than Habs fans. Oh…and your anecdotal nonsense equals “please”.

$1:
I'm only interested because I noticed that on facebook, there are more Habs fans than leaf fans, despite the fact that there are 4,000,000 Canadian users outside of Québec (1,000,000 in Toronto alone) and only 450,000 in all of QC. You would think that there would be many more leaf fans considering there are 9 times more people to draw from, if the leafs are in fact Canada's team.



“Facebook” ?!?!?!? This is your empirical evidence? Hey, want to compare “google” searches as evidence too? Maybe Leaf fans simply don’t use Facebook in the same numbers. Nice misread of stats though.

$1:
I will gladly concede the point if anybody can furnish the numbers. I've looked around myself but can't find any actual evidence that the attendance, merchandise and popularity numbers are real and not just based on mass, wishful thinking on the part of frustrated fans or some slick marketing plan dreamed up by MLSE. Those guys have hoodwinked enough people in my opinion. I also would rather not fall victim to an urban myth such as the "UN proclaims Toronto most multicultural city in the world" story. I fell for that one, only to find out that there never was any such proclamation.


You claimed Montreal was the most popular team in Canada so the onus is on you to substantiate that claim. Oh…and why would broadcasters favor the Leafs (as you say) if there weren’t profit or other incentives in it? Surely you aren’t suggesting altruism

$1:
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself why anybody under 40 would choose to be a leaf fan. The other 5 Canadian teams have all either won the Cup or at least made it to the finals in the modern era. What would motivate a person to choose one of the worst teams in professional sports, the only team that has played under .500 and never made the finals since expansion, as their favourite team? I ask myself this, and I can never come up with a logical answer. It just doesn't make any sense


“Fan” is short for “fanatic”, genius. It sort of implies a lack of logic and a more emotional attachment. Maybe the difference between a Leafs fan and Habs fan is that the former is a fan and the later is a bandwagon jumper.

$1:
o answer your question, I've lived in Halifax, Montréal, Toronto, Oakville, London, Sarnia, Calgary, Banff, Burnaby, Vancouver, Houston TX, Chattanooga TN, Edinburgh Scotland, Melbourne and Perth Australia. I've met a couple of people along the way including quite a few leaf fans, and I always try to drop a little change into their cups!.


So? And you’ve met ALL of Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Oakville, London (and I care how many in Tennessee are Leafs fans?), etc? I doubt it. Unless you’ve got some tangible evidence instead far flung anecdotes, all we’ve got is your opinion. And that doesn’t count for much.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:14 pm
 


Habfanman Habfanman:
Brenda Brenda:
THat is your source? Facebook? You based your argument on Facebook members?


I'm not basing my argument on facebook, I'm trying to find the real numbers! I'm hoping that someone can provide them. facebook is by no means a reliable indicator, but you have to ask yourself, with over a million members in Toronto alone, why would there be more Habs fans than leaf fans? Why would people there buck the trend? It just so happens that it's the only source I've been able to find that provides an actual number comparison, unreliable as it surely is. I've googled every combination I can think of and come up empty-handed.



Euhhmmm, actually, you are making the claim here:

Habfanman Habfanman:
It's true! I've never seen any actual numbers to back up the claim,


and when you claim something to be true, YOU provide the info that goes with it. If you can't, you shouldn't have made it "truth", but a question. Or am I nitpicking now? ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:03 pm
 


Brenda Brenda:
Habfanman Habfanman:
Brenda Brenda:
THat is your source? Facebook? You based your argument on Facebook members?


I'm not basing my argument on facebook, I'm trying to find the real numbers! I'm hoping that someone can provide them. facebook is by no means a reliable indicator, but you have to ask yourself, with over a million members in Toronto alone, why would there be more Habs fans than leaf fans? Why would people there buck the trend? It just so happens that it's the only source I've been able to find that provides an actual number comparison, unreliable as it surely is. I've googled every combination I can think of and come up empty-handed.



Euhhmmm, actually, you are making the claim here:

Habfanman Habfanman:
It's true! I've never seen any actual numbers to back up the claim,


and when you claim something to be true, YOU provide the info that goes with it. If you can't, you shouldn't have made it "truth", but a question. Or am I nitpicking now? ;-)


I'm merely stating that it's true, I haven't been able to find any information! I will now provide all of the information that I have not been able to find:
















There! That is truly, much of the information that I have not been able to find. There is probably more, but since I don't know how much I have yet to find, I don't know how much blank space to leave!


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